Building A Community For Dads And Your Family | Matt Ragland (father of 3, HeyCreator, Podia, ConvertKit)

Matt: Especially as kids, the type of understanding and expression that you have most readily available when you're young is physical expression. And to give that type of emotion and expression back to your kids is a way that they can quickly understand in better detail than words and emotions, like, how you're feeling and how you care about them.

Adam: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman, and in my first conversation of 2024, I sat down with Matt Ragland. Matt is an entrepreneur and creator who helps other creators build their businesses.

Most importantly, in 2023, Matt started an online community for fathers called Digital Dads that has grown to hundreds of members around the world, including me. He's a husband and the father of three kids. In our conversation today, we talked about the importance of community and especially building community amongst dads.

We also talked about Matt's journey as a self employed entrepreneur and choosing that path to better balance work, personal health, and nurturing his family. One of my biggest takeaways from this episode is how Matt intentionally works to help his kids build a vision that is greater than themselves and even their family, and the influence of Matt's own parents on his values and approach to parenting.

This is an inspiring episode to start the new year.

Adam: I would like to welcome Matt Ragland to the Startup Dad Podcast, Matt, it is so good to have you here. Thank you for joining me today.

Matt: Hey Adam, it's great to be here with you and the listeners as well. Thanks for having me.

Adam: All right. All three of the listeners that I have so far now we're, we're growing,

Matt: Don't diminish yourself and the growth that we're seeing.

Adam: We're getting there. So I wanted to start off and just ask you a little bit about your professional background. This is one of the few times that we're going to talk about work on this show, but tell me a little bit about you and your professional journey.

Matt: It has been a journey. I'll give you the short version of it. The career that I've found myself in now, and it has been an intentional career, especially over the last 10 years, I started writing, blogging online in 2011, and in 2013, I decided that I wanted to work in tech.

Yeah, this was right when remote jobs were becoming a little bit more popular, and so I had learned a lot. Self taught, I guess, about content marketing and blogging. And so those were the roles that I was looking at. I got really close on a few different companies including Buffer. Another one that was really fun to like progress on.

They actually flew me out to park city, it was backcountry.com, which would have been super fun because I'm like really big into the outdoors. We'll talk about that some, so that, that would have been neat. But that didn't end up happening. I did end up, my first tech job was with a company called Sumo with Noah Kagan, and so Noah gave me my first spot in tech and I'll be grateful to him forever for that.

We worked together for a little bit and cause I was working more contract with Sumo and it was a great, like foot in the door. But then I got an opportunity to work full time at ConvertKit. And so I was employee number five at ConvertKit. I had also been one of the first 500 users of ConvertKit.

This was in 2015. And I’ll always remember joining ConvertKit for two reasons in terms of timing. One was it was right around my 32nd birthday, so it was early October 2015. And the second reason is I started working contract at ConvertKit the day that Pat Flynn's, Why I Switched to ConvertKit blog post came out.

And so I had been connecting with Nathan a little before that. Yep, he certainly liked that I was already familiar with the product and could help with onboarding and teaching new users. We had a mutual friend named Brian Harris. He's a great guy. Also here in Nashville. I'm in Nashville by the way. But from there, I worked at ConvertKit in a variety of account management, support, a little bit, dabbled in product management a little bit. I wouldn't claim that I'm a product manager. I wouldn't want to insult the actual product managers out there, so I was there for almost four years.

And then in 2019 I started working at Podia as their director of customer success. And I was there for a little over two years and then I stopped working at Podia at the end of 2020 and started doing my own creator driven business at the beginning of 2021. I was able to do that because in 2018 I started a YouTube channel and in that year I published I think 65 videos that year, a little over one per week.

And I just kept doing, for the most part, weekly videos from 2018 all the way through 2020. So three years of weekly videos. I had gotten around 30,000 subscribers at that time. My email list was up to about 12,000. I had been selling courses and doing coaching. And at that point, at the end of 2020 , I had been thinking about this for most of the year, even in the midst of COVID.

And had decided that my priorities in terms of work, family, personal, health, fitness, and side hustle, because YouTube for me was a side hustle at the time. Of those four things, They were just becoming too time consuming, all of them, and the way that I wanted to grow on YouTube, and, you know, basically make my side hustle bigger, something else had to decrease.

And at that point, I didn't want to, take any worse care of myself, so turn any, like, personal fitness time or just health time into more work time, because at that point I was, probably working a pretty solid, you know, 50ish hours a week with Podia in addition to another 10 or 15. So I was pretty often hitting that 60 hour a week mark.

You know, we had two kids and so certainly like just spending less time with family wasn't an option to me either. Being less supportive of my wife or less around my kids. And I guess you could throw sleep in there as well. That kind of goes into the personal health part. Cause I don't need a ton of sleep.

But I need a little bit more than like six to seven hours is pretty solid for a night. But to routinely get like five just wasn't long term sustainable either. So that was the tipping point. I worked on my own through all of 2021. In 2022, I partnered with another former ConvertKit employee, first VP of growth at ConvertKit, one of the, one of big reasons, obviously alongside Nathan, that ConvertKit grew the way that it did in 2016-2017.

His name is Daryl Vesterfelt. We'd known each other for years at that point, and he was running a creator focused agency, and I had continued to do creator focused operations and strategy as supplement to my course and coaching income in 2021. So we partnered together in 2022 and that has continued through 2023.

So that's it in a, not too small in a nutshell, but that's the quickest way I can get through it.

Adam: That's awesome. I wanted to go all the way back in time and ask you what life was like growing up?

What did your parents do for work? Did you have a stereotypical upbringing? What sort of siblings or situation were you in?

Matt: As for growing up, late 80s, you know, through the 90s, I was born in 83, so I just turned 40 pretty recently. My dad was a pastor and an accountant. He had dual master's degrees.

Adam: Wow. But both requires a ton of patience, by the way.

Matt: Yeah, that definitely was an, overlap. And one of the things about my dad was looking back, he set an early example for me in terms of side hustling and like piecing things together for your family.

Another thing that I learned from him was that it's, like, subconsciously, definitely, but I learned from him that it's okay and even good in a lot of ways to maybe sacrifice some parts of like worldly success to do a thing that you really believe is important to you. You know, we were just a very solidly middle class family, and, yeah, not to sound old, but, you know, things were different back then.

You just didn't, we didn't go out to eat much, like, you know, stuff like that, where it's like, I think now, it's like, man, we do take out like all the time

Adam: Sure.

Matt: With our family and it's just like, it's way more normalized and it's easier too, but I do think like there were things that my parents sacrificed because they felt that they were called into the ministry.

And so for my dad to pursue that, my mom who's a stay at home mom, I was homeschooled all the way until high school for them to like make very conscious intentional choices about this is what we want our family to be like these are the roles that we want to have this is the impact these are the values and this is the kind of work that I want to do like from my dad's perspective that I think like subconsciously was very impactful to me in addition to that knowing that my dad also understood, I've got a number to hit every month and every year, and to do that, I'm also going to do, like, tax returns and financial planning. And so I can remember, like, many, many times that my dad would do taxes on Tuesday and Wednesday, and then he would prepare the sermon on Wednesday, Thursday.

Yeah, we kind of have Friday, Saturday as a family. Like I said you know, you can get a lot done in homeschooling.

So like Friday, Saturday was our like family weekend. And then you know, certainly church all day, Sunday as was tradition back then, a couple of services, Sunday night service, potluck, the whole thing.

I'm the oldest of five kids. So, just big, busy, fun house, and you know, not without the, like, normal drama that can come with having a lot of people under one roof, we didn't always all get along, but I'm, like, so grateful for what my parents you know, decided to do for us as a family how it shaped me and shaped all of us.

So. And yeah for my mom to like lead and teach and homeschool five kids that were, I mean, I'm 12 years apart from my youngest sister. So it was quite a range of there for a little while.

Adam: Yeah. She was running a school for a long time. It sounds like.

Matt: It was

Adam: yeah, yeah.

Matt: My younger siblings went to school a little bit earlier I don't want to put words in my mom's mouth, but I towards the end she's like, yeah, that's fine They can go in seventh grade instead of ninth or tenth

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I mean, at some point you just get tired, right? 

Matt: Yeah, well and also like I mean this may or may not be necessary to include but we moved a bunch when I was growing up, but by the time I hit eighth grade So we probably moved four different cities, you know, six or seven houses between birth to 8th grade. And then my parents have lived in the same house since I was, since we moved there when I was in 8th grade in like ‘96 or whatever that was.

So, the level of comfort that they all had, at the point where it was time for my younger siblings to go to school, everyone else had been through, like, those parts of the school system. Like, me, my brothers, my other sister, like, is like, oh, okay, well, you know, we know everybody there, at this point.

Adam: You were the Guinea pigs.

Matt: Yeah.

Adam: That's awesome. So I want to transition and talk a little bit about your family now, how'd you meet your partner and tell me about your kids.

Matt: She's great. We met my senior year of high school, so a little high school sweetheart action. We didn't go to the same college, but they were very close by, so we saw each other often throughout college. And right after she graduated, she's a year younger than me, we got married, and so we've been married…next May will be 17 years.

Adam: Wow. Congrats.

Matt: Thank you. Thank you. And so, she's wonderful. She's very supportive of me and me of her. She has had a lot of things like happen in her career as well. Most recently, the reason we came to Nashville is so she could go to nursing school. And so, went to nursing school.

She became a nurse, did one of those intense, grueling, like, what's it called? Accelerated nursing programs where they just teach you four years of nursing in four semesters. It was. It was intense and then right after that was done she was pregnant with our oldest son, Kanan, who's eight, and then we've just stayed, we've stayed in Nashville, and right now Morgan is uh, at home.

Um, mom, She runs the home with those three boys. Ben is five and Lock is one and a half. And so looking back again to draw a comparison, I know, we got married in our early twenties. We knew we wanted, probably, you know, at least two, probably three, we'll see after that was like the conversation. We didn't necessarily say like, hey, you're going to be at home.

We're going to homeschool that was many years, that was many years ago and her mom worked all the way through. And so certainly I wanted to support her and whatever she wanted to do, but. Yeah. As we've had more kids and as she has enjoyed being with them more and more, it just made sense for us to structure our lives to be a single income home, even though there are some challenges, mostly financial, that come with that.

At the same time, there are still, some financial benefits as well, like, I know what my friends pay for, like, daycare and private school, and that ain't nothin in any place, but especially a spot like Nashville. I will, like, make one caveat that our two younger kids Locke and Ben, they both do a, like, Mother's Day out twice a week program.

So Morgan and Kanan do the majority of their school work on Tuesday and Thursday and then he kind of fills in the other three days. But he's in third grade, and you could say he's a year ahead, I guess. Our goal right now is to keep them all homeschooled at least through elementary school, so Ben will start next year.

Then we'll kind of see from there. I think I could have gone to school a little earlier than I did if we hadn't been in the middle of a couple of moves at that time. I was a very social child and all our boys are at this point.

So I could see, like, if they, really wanted to and there was a good situation in middle school I could see us like making that decision, but that's still a few years away even for the first one.

Adam: So you were homeschooled for a long time. This is something that I never experienced growing up. I went to kindergarten, preschool, like I was not in the house, but I know that there is a growing movement around people teaching their kids at home. And I think, you know, it really exploded during COVID when everyone was home and, you know, virtually learning was so fraught with problems.

But tell me about why it's important for you as a family to do that, to teach your kids at home.

Matt: Yeah, it's a really good question to ask and for us there are a couple of reasons one is that you know, we want to have more oversight and involvement, I guess, you know, with homeschool, you could even say control about what the boys are learning now, for Canaan specifically, like, he passes all the required tests.

I can remember when I was a kid at the end of each year. My brother and I would have to go to, like, one of the local private schools and take, basically the grade aptitude test. Heh, and we were always fine. Heh,

And Kanan has been fine as well. So, we know that he's learning all the things that he needs to.

And, the other part of it is, and I can remember this for myself, when I was being homeschooled, There's a lot of, you know, lack of a better term, there's a lot of wasted time in school.

Adam: Yeah.

Matt: And, you know, there's not as much of that in homeschool, because it actually, like, I think ironically, it set me up really well for remote work and individual project management, because when you're homeschooled, It's like, here's the work that you have to do, and when you're done with the work, you can just be done.

Adam: Right.

Matt: And, you know, it's not like, well, now this is the 50 minute block where we're going to learn math. Well, if you have an assignment, and you go through these pages, and it only takes you 20 minutes, well then, okay. You can be done with that, we can move on. So you can get through things a lot faster. The other part is, it also allows for, one, not just the freedom of movement, like if we want to travel somewhere, certainly we can do that, not a big deal, but it also allows for more freedom of exploration.

So, like, Kanan really likes drawing and storytelling, and he will spend, like, hours doing that. Whereas, like, how much time would he have in an art class? if he was at school, like, maybe that's twice a week whereas like, some kids might spend maybe two hours a week in, like, art.

He might spend two hours a day on it. And I want to, like, as long as he's getting the essentials in, the thing that homeschooling allows him to do, allows us to do, is, like, dedicate all that extra time towards, like, what he's interested in. So, that's the big thing that we really liked about it.

Now, it's certainly not all fun and games. I want to be, like, clear about that. Because something that I've noticed, and I think, you know, I do this a lot of times. Is, , I think most people are much more willing to, like, Be harsh or sassy with the people that they care about, and the people that they know care about them.

So like, Kanan will get sassy, I hope they listen to this in the future, Kanan will get sassy with us when he thinks something shouldn't, like, he's like, I don't care about this right now. I don't want to do this right now. This isn't interesting to me. I don't want to do this, or like, he tries to do it a way that, especially with math, he'll like, do more math memorization, or he's like, no, we have to understand why this problem is answered the way that it is. You're just like, guessing. You're guessing, you're not learning. And like, we'll argue about that kind of stuff a lot. And we'll try and say to him, you know, it doesn't quite work because he doesn't understand the other side. It's like, if you were at school, you would go to detention for talking to your teacher like this.

You would go talk to the principal. And You also wouldn't get, maybe, like, I know there are some schools that do, but you probably wouldn't get, like, this kind of attention, and like, here's how. If you, like, guessed your way through it, that might be okay, and, you know, I'm not blaming any teacher on this, like, I know that teachers have an incredibly difficult job in almost every scenario, and it can be a challenge to teach, like, 10 to 15 or more, 20 or more kids at a time, so, that's probably the biggest challenge that mostly Morgan but Morgan and I have with homeschooling, is just some of the stubbornness that can exist.

Adam: Yes. Yes. I can appreciate that stubbornness. My experience with homeschooling was. A kindergartner and a 2nd grader during the pandemic. And that was challenging.

So I wanted to transition a little bit and talk about a couple of the topics that you brought up. And then I wanted to get into something that is kind of the reason that you and I met each other, even though it was on the internet.

So one of the things that you mentioned in our prep was this idea that in your family and for you in particular, these ideas of outward expressions of love

Matt: Mm hmm.

Adam: To your wife, to your kids. That's really important in your family.

Matt: Yeah.

Adam: Can you tell me some more about that? I'm curious how that manifests in your, in your life.

Matt: Yeah. That's a good question. I'm glad we get to talk about it. It's important to me because, especially as kids, the, type of understanding and expression that you have, most readily available when you're young is physical expression. And to give that type of emotion and expression back to your kids is a way that they can quickly understand.

In better detail than words and emotions, like, how you're feeling and how you care about them. And, like, for my middle son, more specifically, I would say, like, when he gets upset, talking to him doesn't really work all that well. Now he's only five, but this is kind of what I'm saying. He's like, he's only five.

But he's actually not five until next week in December, and this is going out in January. But if I, like, grab on to him and, like, hold him tightly, and try and, like, get our breath to start matching together, like, he will calm down a lot faster than if I just tried to, like, talk him through it. And, you know, Kanan is a lot like this.

I mean, all the boys are like this, to, to an extent that they will respond to physical reassurance more so than verbal reassurance. And so like, I'm a physical person as well, and yeah, I, you know, respond well to that type of expression. Like, growing up, that was, like, my family has always been a family of huggers.

 We'll give some hugs, you know, and yeah, that was something. Which I've always, yeah, appreciated. And again, it was probably very subconscious, in some ways you could say it was programmed in. But, you know, when it comes to how I relate to Morgan, relate to their mother, I want them to see me, like, taking care of her physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially.

But from a physical perspective, say, that, like, It's normal to hug your wife, to kiss, to love on her, to show that, you know, you care. So I think that is something that I've tried to be very intentional and mindful of, but especially with them. Like when kids are young, you know, boy or girl, it doesn't matter what gender, like, kids will respond to, like, physical expression more than they will respond to verbal expression or calming.

Adam: Yeah. I also recently learned that there's quite a bit of science behind this too. I guess when…

Matt: Like the old skin to skin.

Adam: That's right. And when people hug, it releases a ton of endorphins in both parties. So, I think especially for kids, I totally agree with you that like, something about giving a kid a hug that tends to cure all ills.

Maybe not instantly, but it definitely helps a lot more than just trying to talk through it. So thanks for sharing that with me.

Matt: Yeah, thanks.

Adam: So you and I met because, well, first, because you had a really interesting Twitter thread about exercise and maybe your youngest or your middle kid getting up super early and you kind of including him in the exercise routine and things like that so that you could still take care of yourself.

But then as I was spelunking more into your background, I saw that you had started this community for dads online and specifically kind of dads who have creative pursuits, side hustles, things like that. And I joined, you were very nice to let me in, and it's grown pretty big, there's probably close to 300 of us in there, maybe

Matt: I think it's, it's very close to 300 and I do think that with the advent readings we'll cross, yeah, 282.

Adam: 282. That's pretty awesome. So I wanted to ask you, what was it that kind of motivated you to start this community? And why is community so important to you as a dad or just as a human?

Matt: Yeah, it's a great question and I have to give a shout out to my friend Greg Eisenberg. I think he's Greg Eisenberg on the Twitter X, but he is someone that I've been following for a couple years. I took a course from him a few years ago, probably during COVID called Community College, and it was a course about community that I really enjoyed and got me thinking more and more about the spaces that we create online specifically to connect with other like minded people.

Now, of course, like, this is made really easy in some ways by the internet. You can gather people. But, I never really found a good space for it. Or a good, like, level of interest for it that I wanted to, like, be a part of. My YouTube channel is all about productivity. I did dabble in some community, like, when I was doing cohort courses.

Like, we would do it for six weeks at a time. But the ongoing community element of it didn't, to me, feel as sustainable personally. And the other part was I never wanted to, like, have a community that was super duper reliant on me being, like, the star of it. Now, I don't mind being on YouTube videos and going on podcasts.

I do have, like, some star energy that I don't mind, like, pressing on. But I didn't want to have a community that was, like, mostly reliant on, what is Matt gonna post? What is Matt gonna do extra? That I get something from.

Energetically, that wasn't a place that I wanted to like spend a lot of time in, but when I started having these conversations with dads and a couple of these posts that I had on X went pretty well, it became clear to me that, you know, could I do the organizing?

Yes, but it was about the conversation and gathering people together that had a lot of like helpful and interesting things to say and ways to help each other you know, through some of the like, really interesting, like times and responsibilities and changing responsibilities of what it means to be a man and be a father.

And also like the type of work that many of us do, like the name of the group is Digital Dads and it's because almost everyone in the group, it's not specific to this, but almost everyone in the group is doing some type of digital work, whether that's startups, like a lot of people listening to this or just working as a freelancer or working remotely, like balancing all of those things while often being at home, the majority of, if not the entire day, is something that I knew all of us could contribute to.

Again, like, could I be kind of the organizing voice around it? Sure, that sounded like fun and interesting to me, but I knew that anyone who asked any question would be just as, like, valuable and applicable as anything that I could post. And so, that's how the community, like, came to be, and I'm excited to, like, see it grow.

Adam: Me too. there's so few, I think, online spaces for dads to just kind of share all the things about being a dad. And this community has really been interesting to me. I mean, there's a huge spectrum of people in there from all around the world. There's a dad who joined recently who’s like in his seventies and he's in there.

And you've got people asking questions about like video games and tantrums and struggles with work and life balance and people are so helpful. So it's just been a really fun thing to be a part of, even if I'm just some days, just kind of voyeuristic in there and just reading what other people have to say, but thank you putting it together.

It's been great. And I hope it grows really big in 2024.

Matt: Yeah, me too. I mean, like you said the variety of questions and the men that are helping each other is, yeah, there is. And I've also been very pleased with the quality of person. You know, the other thing that can be tricky about community in, you know, especially online communities is you're not always a hundred percent sure if people are who they say they are.

And, you know, even though anyone who comes into the group has to go through an application process You still don't, like, it's not like a hardcore vetting that's happening. And it's also like, it's a free community, so if you're listening to this, like, it's free, so come on in. But I'm also not spending a lot of my time vetting a free community.

I only say that to emphasize that the quality of person who's coming in, I haven't had to kick anybody out because they're being mean, or they're, like, being disrespectful. So to have like let's just say 300 people come in over a few months and for everyone to like be respectful and kind and at times challenge each other, like that's not easy to find.

I certainly can't find that on most public facing social channels that people are just going to be nice to each other. So that has been really great.

Adam: Very true. I wanted to switch gears for a little bit. And one of the things that you told me is that you are a big proponent of taking your kids on adventures. Tell me about what that means to you and what are some of your favorite adventures that you've gone on with your kids?

Matt: Yeah, a lot of times, I think in a moderately big on these, and when I say moderately big, that means like a day or two, like say a weekend adventure. I try and take the boys camping as much as I can, and I say that, and I'll clarify that when I say as much as I can, that still only really comes out to two or three times a year.

Cause there's still a yeah, and so I don't, you know, just if people are wondering, but what I enjoy about doing camping specifically and we also we hike once or twice a month And so we do like to get outside and like hence my reference to it would have been cool I don't know how long it would have lasted but it would have been cool to like live in Park City and work at backcountry.com

Adam: Mm

Matt: But what I love about camping particularly is, the boys can help me with every part of that process. They can help me pack equipment for the trip. They can help me lay everything out. We have, like, little like, illustrated checklists. And so they're like, do we have the tent?

And I look on the thing and it's like, check. You know, laminated. Like, we have, so they can do all of that with me, they can, like, you know, they can help me gather wood for a fire, they can help me set up the tent, they can help me you know, cook in a lot of instances. And so there's nothing that we, there's almost nothing that we do, I mean, even sometimes if I'm using, like, a knife, knives on podcasts.

I can, you know, start, it's a very visual thing I can, like, with Kanan, I can start teaching him, like, hey, here's how you, like, whittle, or here's how you get, like, some bark off this like, piece of wood, yeah, and, you know, helpful, safe, you know, first use of a knife.

There's nothing that we can't do, and then they can help me break down, they can help me put things away. Every single piece of it, they can be very involved with, and one of the reasons I love that specifically is because I have a job that, for now, doesn't make much sense to them. Like, Dad says that I have to have limited screen time, meanwhile Dad looks at a screen himself eight hours of the day.

Adam: Ha ha ha. Yep.

Matt: Like, I'm making things, but to an eight year old, to a five year old, one of the other reasons that I started making YouTube videos is that I wanted my kids to see like, hey, I made this thing. Look, you're in it right there. So it's a little bit more like to say like I'm writing a newsletter today, and they're like, sometimes I'll even print them out.

If they're like, yeah, you're not doing it. I was like, I've printed this out, and they don't care about it. Which is fine. But I can at least say, like, There are words here that Kanan, the 8 year old, can read. And he's like, okay, alright, you wrote this, fine. You were working. But I don't have a job where I'm making a thing that like, is tangible to them.

One of the reasons that I love adventures, besides that I personally love adventures of the outdoor sort is that they're very collaborative between me and the boys. And even like down to like, you know, 30 minute hikes that we might go on, like they both have little backpacks. I was like, hey, you gotta carry, you know, we're gonna carry water and we're gonna carry a little snack.

And, you know, if you want to get in the creek, then you got to put some sandals in there. So it's all stuff that we'd be like, hey, do you have everything in your pack? I'll check your pack, you check my pack, we'll make sure that we have everything together. So those are all things that we can very tangibly, like, help each other with and collaborate on, and that's one of the reasons.

That I love them so much.

Adam: Awesome. And every kid has an age appropriate level of jobs that they can do. Even your one and a half year old can pick up some sticks from the ground or like do a little sweeping or something like that, you know?

Matt: Come on. Locke. Get those sticks

Adam: That's, that's pretty awesome.

Matt: He likes to, like, test the fire heat from a distance. Cause, you know, we've

taught him, like, fire heat. So he'll get, like, you know, to be clear to all the listeners, a very safe distance, but he'll see the fire start to come up and be like ha. And we're like, yes. Correct. It is hot now.

Adam: That's good. Very, a very important job and learning.

Matt: It's like, Locke is the fire hot? It is hot. And it's like, okay, good.

Look at everyone. The fire is hot hot.

Adam: Not just hot, not one hot, but two. 

You now have three kids and you always knew you wanted to have kids and you had, you know, five of you growing up. What are some of the most surprising things that you've discovered as a dad?

Matt: It's kind of a lame answer I don’t that there have been like too many things that have surprised me. I guess I didn't really understood how much less sleep I was going to get. I don't think my kids understand. And that's great, I didn't understand as a kid, like, how late my dad might be staying up, or how early he might be getting up to do the things that you know, was important to him.

Same thing with my mom. So, yeah, I guess, like, things that I didn't understand until they were happening is, like, how consistently, like, cluttered everything is, like, even when you pick up. And I'll, like, I'll make a caveat and an admission that I'm, like, not the cleanest person, not the best personal picker upper.

It's one of my growing edges. My wife's been working with me. We've made great progress in these 17 years. I don't like things being dirty, but I don't mind them being cluttered. Just, I guess that's another. It's like, oh yeah, there's stuff on the ground. Yeah, I don't want to do that right now.

I've been doing this. If there's stuff on the ground, it's like, I don't like things being dirty…

Adam: We are very similar.

Matt: Yeah, I don't like things being dirty. I'm not a, not a monster. But, I don't mind them being cluttered. And so just how consistently cluttered everything is. And the other part, yeah, surprise is like, and maybe this is just having boys, but I don't think so, how they're just constantly hungry.

It doesn't matter if they've just eaten, and they're like, hey, I'm hungry, and it's like, no, like, they, it's like they have to eat at not just, like, normal times, but when they're bored, and also, like, if there's any transition. Like, if they go out for a walk, and they come back in, even if we just had breakfast an hour ago, they're like, man, I'm hungry.

We just, we're here back in the house, might as well eat something, like, no.

Adam: They're like hobbits.

Matt: Yeah, I was like, yeah, oh no, the second breakfast, elevensies, afternoon tea, they would put hobbits to shame. Mary and Pippin would be like, these kids, they eat too much.

Adam: Yeah,

Matt: So I would say those things, like the little sleep, and I sleep a decent amount, like, but little sleep, things are always cluttered, and they eat all the time.

Those are the three things that, even if you had told me, I'd have been like, yeah, sure, that makes sense, but like, mercy.

Adam: You don't quite know the scale of it until you're in the moment. So. Yeah. So I have two more questions for you based on some of the stuff that you talked to me about in the run up to this show. And one of those is around habits. Now you strike me as a guy who takes pretty good care of himself.

And you've created some habits for yourself that help you take care of your life, your house, your kids, things like that. But you also mentioned that it's really important that you demonstrate having good habits for your boys. So what are the ways in which you do that and what kind of habits to demonstrate to them are really important for you?

Matt: One of the ways that I have really tried to emphasize this over the last 18 months, really since our third child was born, and this isn't for everyone, so I just want to say that at the beginning. Is that I stopped working from home once I was ready to go back to work. So, summer last year I stopped working from home.

Like, very rarely will I work from home during the day. Like, there has to be something, like, abnormal going  on.

Adam: Yeah.

Matt: And one of the reasons that I did that is I wanted there to be, and this is a little traditionalist, but I wanted there to be a distinction between working Matt and dad Matt. So now when I'm at home, I am just able to be dad.

It's not like, why is dad in that room, and the door is closed, and I can't talk to him. Again, like, I know that was the best option for us for a while. That is, like, a great option for many people, so I'm not diminishing that or saying that is something that's not worth doing.

But for me and my family, it became pretty clear that It was a much better option for me to just be gone for 6, 7, you know, occasionally 8 hours of the day so I could, when I was home in the morning, and when I was home at night, and during the weekend, that I was just dad. Like, I'm not locked in, I'm not locked in a room.

You can always come talk to me. We can play. You know, we might be doing chores, of course. when I'm home I'm dad. And a couple other ways that I try and demonstrate those habits. This might be another one where people might say that I'm cheating, but one of the things that I do is, like, I will still often, like, wake up early to do a little writing or maybe a little extra work, so I'll be up on my computer.

 I also like to read in the morning, and so when I hear the pitter patter of little feet upstairs now I kind of know when they'll wake up as well, but when the boys come downstairs, I want them to see me reading, even if I've only been reading for a couple of minutes. I read a lot, you know, I'm not a I wouldn't say I'm a book collector in the sense of like, I read 50 books this year, but that, like, that's great, but I did read 20, I think it's gonna be 26 or 27 books, so I usually go through like two a month, and so they see me reading, they see me like writing and journaling, and I want to demonstrate those habits for them that it's not and of course I try and be off my phone as much as possible around them because again like I don't want them on the screen a ton and so it would be pretty, what's the word? Not ironic.

Adam: Hypocritical.

Matt: Yeah, let's use that one. That's the one. So I don't want them to be on the screen a lot.

So it would be pretty hypocritical of me to just be, you know, dialed into my phone while they're like, Alright, hold on kids. I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to tweet something. This, yeah this is, this one's going hot. I gotta make sure I reply to, to Stu. Shout out to Stu.

Adam: Someone is wrong on the internet!

Matt: Someone is wrong on the internet and they must be taught by me right now.

Not you. I can't spend time with you. Someone's wrong on the internet. So I do try and like put that to the side. The other thing, and this was one of the threads or posts that you mentioned over the summer, is I like to exercise with them as much as I can and that's not all the time, but we go on walks.

We'll play at the playground. I'll play any kind of, like, crazy game that they come up with. That can be a great workout, certainly doing whatever they've come up with. But also, like, we have a bunch of, like, little, like, kid friendly workout equipment, too. So, like, wall balls that are only 6 or 8 pounds.

Or sandbags that are only 10 or 15 pounds. And, of course, like, they'll hang on a pull up bar. Or they, like, will learn to do burpees. Or we'll just, like we'll carry those wall balls or sandbags around. And I want, like, to do things like that with them. And those are a few ways. So those three are, like, having a clear distinction between working Matt and dad Matt.

Showing them, like, good non screen habits, like reading, writing and journaling. And then the third one is, like, involving them in as much, like, exercise as I can. Again, like, I just like one, like, little, one addition to the exercise thing is that Kanan and I, and Ben is about to start next month , all do jiu jitsu together.

Not all at the same time. Uh, I would be so proud. I would just crush everybody. But, it is cool that like, Kanan, he's been off a little bit, cause we have, right now we have a rule of only one sport, one activity at a time. But, he's been training for over three years at this point. Like, he started when he was five, Ben will start when he's five.

And he knows a lot of things about Jiu Jitsu. And there's some things that he kinda knows a little bit better than me. I don't push him on it, he, like, understands things really well, but that is cool where if we're, like, wrestling, “rasslin” upstairs, then we can be like, hey Kanan, if I was doing this in Jiu Jitsu, like, how would you get around it?

And if you were trying to hold me back in this way, how would you continue to, like, keep me at a distance? And now Since Ben is starting next month. He's been putting on Kanan's old gi.

And They've been going through and Kanan will be like, Alright, so Ben, this is how you do a single leg takedown.

You come in here and you do this, and you want to make sure, like, this is how you do close guard. So like, these are all things that like, I can talk to Kanan about, and then Kanan can talk to Ben about, and Ben and I can talk about that like, is physical. So it goes back to kind of that physical expression.

It is a thing that strategically, like, is very helpful for them, and it also helps keep them safe and confident in a way also. So those are the things that yeah are all, like, fun habits and ways that we get to connect and stay together.

Adam: Those are great. I love that. And jujitsu seems like it also is developing quite a community spirit about it too. So then you get to be kind of part of something bigger than just that individual, you know, sport community. It's a group thing.

Matt: Yeah.

Adam: Speaking of which, I wanted to go and kind of connect something you said at the very beginning about.

Observing your dad as a kid and something that's important to you now. And one of the things that you mentioned to me is this idea about teaching your kids to have a greater vision than just themselves. So things that are outside of themselves. And so I, I heard you say something about that related to your dad when you were growing up and observing him, kind of him living his life that way.

So. Tell me about that and what do you do to foster that vision with your kids and kind of teach them that there is More to life than just thinking about themselves all the time.

Matt: Yeah. It's something that was instilled in me early on, and what's interesting. is something that I've talked with my dad about and I'm looking to expand on is for us, like the vision greater than ourselves was all like based in our faith and based in Christianity, said my dad was a minister, and so that being a part of something bigger than yourself, a vision greater than yourself was all like rooted in the kingdom of God and that's still the benchmark for our family, but I also see, and this is, you know, other places that this can be established, like, our community was really important to us, and so, like, there are kind of levels of vision, but all of them can be, like, there's, and I do think, like, and this is something that I didn't probably get enough of as a kid it was like, there are things that I wanted to do, And I would say, like, I was ambitious once I got to college, like, when I was younger I wanted to do well, probably just for, like, yes intrinsically wanted to succeed, but a lot of that was based on the recognition that I would get, and it wasn't until, like, college and post college, I was like, oh, I want to go do this thing because I want to do it, so, like, a personal vision, I do think is really important because that kind of keeps you grounded, but I think that personal vision and direction, being connected to something bigger than yourself, and there are levels of this, so there's, like, your personal vision, and there's the family vision, the neighborhood slash community. I do think there can be kind of a breakdown sometimes between, like, your neighborhood community and sometimes, especially in big cities, like, the city as a whole.

Like, I care about what happens in Nashville, but I care way more about what happens in my neighborhood than I do, like, Nashville as a whole. And so there's a level of, like, helping the boys see, like, what happens in our family is, like, just, our household family is more important than what is happening to you.

And again, like, there's, I want to be careful how I say this, like, there are levels of all these things. Like, we could spend a whole episode talking about, like, when do you protect yourself versus, like, when do you, like, sacrifice for the family.

There's a lot of like different ways of looking at that so I don't want to make like blanket statements, but when it comes to like, hey, this is what you want to do as a person, this is how it connects to the family dynamic. This is how, like, even as the bigger Ragland family, like bringing like my parents, their grandparents, their, you know, aunts, uncles, cousins, like what we all care about.

And then like, how does that connect to our church to the kingdom of God as like a bigger perspective, again, like you can bring that back down to like, what are we doing as a nation? Like, again, like there's a whole, there's a whole thing about all of that. But I think that the way that most people and let's say most dads can make a big impact on their families is by establishing like, this is what matters to us.

This is how, what you're doing, child, can connect and be a part, an important part of what we're doing as a family and then like finding something at least like one or two levels up from that so that can be the neighborhood, the neighborhoods. Great. I think that should be important to everyone.

And then what kind of civic like, visions, can you be a part of as well? And like for us that's a church primarily, but it can also be like, we're a part of a good baseball group or a part of a good like jujitsu group that you know, like has similar goals and ways that we can connect and support each other.

Adam: That's great. Thank you for sharing that. One of the things that I also like to ask people is, you know, you've talked a lot about partnership with your wife and how important that is to you and it's super important when you have kids but also it is impossible to think that you agree with your partner a hundred percent of the time on everything.

So what is something that you and your wife don't agree on when it comes to parenting? We've already covered the clutter. There's a difference of opinions on clutter, but maybe there's something else. Or we could go deeper on clutter up to you.

Matt: We don't have to go deeper on clutter. It's very surface level. The other surface level disagreement is the proper way of loading a dishwasher.

Adam: Oh!

Matt: I won't say, like, who is right and who is wrong, but I would just say, like, there are disagreements.

Adam: Yep.

Matt: About dishwasher loading technique. It's the only thing that we disagree on, and it's just more of a type of personality, I think, more so than a large disagreement, is I get a lot more energy from social gatherings, and so I would go out at least once a week. I would have people over at least once a week.

I would go over to other people's houses pretty often. Basically, I would do something with a larger group or another family at least once, if not twice, a week. And my wife is probably like half of that. Where she would, you know, And yeah, it's certainly a compliment to me, I suppose. Like she wants to just have time with me.

And like when we're also having busy, you know, busy schedules as a family and like me working like on the weekend, she wants us all to be together and not, like, have to coordinate a bunch of stuff with another family. And so, that's probably the thing that we disagree on the most is I would probably do twice as much. As we do right now and you know, we kind of go through seasons. Like, this is a heavy season of, like, being with folks. And I lean into that. I press my advantage. Where I can. Any kind of birthday or celebration is like we're having people over. It's a birthday! I get to have people over.

Adam: Yep.

Matt: So that's the thing that we disagree on the most. Is how often to be social.

Adam: Yeah. You know, it makes sense. And it is something that I've heard. I've had a few husband and wife couples and teams on the show, and that has come up as a thing. And sometimes it's the opposite where the husband's really not interested in social activities and the partner is, and vice versa, so I think it's really interesting and probably a thing that a lot of people discuss in their marriage.

Matt: Yeah, and I think , like, being able to discuss it and communicate about it, like, I've understood, like, we've talked about this enough, and we've had enough disagreements about is like, I know that I have to get ahead when we're doing something, it either needs to be like, More spur of the moment and it just like sounds good.

Like, oh, yeah, let's go hang out with such and such. Cool. We'll just hop in the car. We'll be over there. So it's either like, more spur of the moment, or it's like, planned three months in advance. There's very little like, hey, in four days, I was gonna do this, like that. She's like, no.

Adam: Doesn't work. Yeah, I get it. So, what would you say is a mistake that you've made as a father?

Matt: I've been thinking about this. The communication piece is something that I, sorry, the communication part with my wife and maybe it's more of a husband than a father, but it does impact, you know, what I do as a father

Adam: Mm hmm.

Matt: Is the, probably the thing that I have messed up the most, either not talking about something or just waiting too long to talk about it until it's like, oh, by the way, this is going to be a problem tomorrow.

Adam: Yeah.

Matt: And I've known about it for a month.

I think another part of that, and it's related, is just talking about money consistently and clearly and saying, like, this is where we're at. This is what we need to do for X, Y, Z. This is the financial impact of this decision that we might be making. I tend to keep most of that to myself and it's gotten a lot better, but not like being more communicative, which I think is kind of, kind of ironic considering how much I talk on the internet

Adam: Yeah.

Matt: I talk a lot at home, but I do believe that like a willingness to like enter into conversations that I think might be uncomfortable, like delaying or avoiding those is something that I've had to do, I've had to do a lot of work on. It's probably caused me more pain than definitely more pain than I should have experienced because of that.

There's a good book that I recommend all men read. I think it's one of the more controversial, might be a strong word, but it's a very like conversation starting book, so it's called The Way of the Superior Man, which is like just the title alone, like I'll tell people that and they're like, excuse me? Just like… the title doesn't mean that men are superior, but like, to be a superior man, here are some ideas. And I don't subscribe to everything in the book, but one of the key ideas in the book, is that it is the man's job, the father's job, to set a vision, and to, like, lead and guide the family through that vision and I think that there were stretches where I've always been very vision driven as a person for, individually and for my career, like I said for the past 10 to 15 years I know where I wanted to go I have a really good vision for where I want to go in the next 10 years but a vision for the family that I am clearly and consistently communicating and collaborating with my wife on.

That was something that, until the last three or four years, I probably I'd say like the first ten years of our marriage was not something that I spent a lot of time on. Like I was too passive as a family leader. Because I was putting so much of my personal, like, vision and attention and ambition into my career.

And, you know, that is fine to an extent, because that is, that's been the primary way that, you know, I provide, that we, like, pay all of our bills. So, that's all important. But, to have, like, the courage and the clarity, and also the ability to, like, Kind of step back from that and say, like, I don't have all the answers to this.

What, like, can we be doing together? You know, to lead that way, that's something, that's my biggest, that's my biggest mistake and one that I'm working very intently on rectifying and changing for like the, hopefully 50 years

Adam: That sounds like a fantastic question to end on. If people want to follow along in your journey or be helpful to you, what's the best way that they can do that?

Matt: The place where I post most is Twitter X @Matt Ragland. You can also find me on YouTube @Matt Ragland. And then for this group in particular, I have a couple of different newsletters, but the one that you should pay attention to is if you go to mattragland.com/dadchat. Then that's where you can apply to join Digital Dads.

And just as a reminder, it's an application because we want to know more about you. There is not a vetting process unless you're mean for no reason. Then you will be removed. But I also haven't removed anybody.

Adam: Yes, it is a wonderful community. I can attest to that. I will link to all of these places in the show notes. So thank you very much, Matt. We'll try to get some more dads into the community.

Matt: Awesome.

Adam: Okay. All right. It's time for our speed round. Here's how the rules work. I ask you a question. You say the first thing that comes to mind and then we move on to the next question.

Matt: Great.

Adam: Okay. Are you ready, sir?

Matt: I'm ready, sir.

Adam: What is the most indispensable parenting product that you have ever purchased?

Matt: There is something called a nosefrida, and what it does, especially for the wee kids in your life when they get all snotty, you know, just look it up. Maybe not a YouTube video, but just look it up. It's a little tube that goes into the nose, and it allows you to suck the boogers out of your poor child's snotty, congested, they don't know how to blow their nose.

They hate it. It is gross. It will not get in your mouth. There are filters, so don't worry about that. But that is indispensable. I mean, it's gross. But when I think of something that has made my life easier as a parent, just because they can breathe, that's it. That and a noise machine.

Adam: Oh, yes. Yes. The number of times people have said both of those things, I feel like they should be sponsors of this show. Okay, what is the most useless parenting product that you have ever purchased?

Matt: Any kind of expensive toy is useless, because they just play in the box. And, yeah, that's, I guess that's not always the case. Like if I got Kanan a Nintendo Switch he would definitely play with the Switch. I'm not getting him a Switch this year, but the number of times I've, you know, gotten them toys, and it's just like, I'm gonna play with this old thing, I'm gonna play in this box, or, like, I'm gonna pop all of the little, like, bubble wrap instead.

Adam: That's great. What is your go to dad wardrobe?

Matt: Go to dad wardrobe would be some type of jogger. Like, the Lululemon ABC jogger, and then I also like the shirts from 10,000. It's, uh, yeah, so I like shirts from 10,000. I'm sure I would like their joggers as well, but my sister works at Lulu, and so, like, I've gotten a few ABCs slid my way, shout out to Laura over, over the years.

And then I have this pair of, like, The only these are the Nike Craft Only Nikes that I've had in a while, but a couple of like artists and designers that I like. So I'll wear these. Some light wool, like smart wool socks, 10,000 shirt, some type of jogger. And that is mostly it.

Adam: That sounds very comfortable.I love that

Matt: Comfortable. I also love Duer jeans. D U E R. So when I'm wearing jeans, I'm wearing Duers. They're a little, they're a little stretchy. They're great. So I'll either, it's one of, it's either, ABCs or Duers.

Adam: Cool. Now you mentioned you read a lot of books this last year. How many parenting books do you have in your house?

Matt: That's a great question. There's probably like four or five right now. Not a ton.

Adam: And how many parenting books have you read cover to cover?

Matt: I will say probably three.

Adam: Wow.

Matt: The first one that I read that I really liked was called Brain Rules for Baby by John Medina. I think that's how you pronounce his name. He's great. This was like ten years ago, he had a great YouTube series. He's a very, like, expressive, like, scholarly gentleman. I like that.

I read Steven Rinella's Outdoor Kids in an Inside World, that was really good. And then another one that I haven't read cover to cover but I'm working my way through it is Hunt, Gather, Parent is another one. So those are the three. Another one, I forget the name of it, but it's like The Carpenter and the Gardener or something like that.

My wife read that and really liked it.

Adam: We will link to all of those in the show notes. Okay. On the opposite end, screen time. Good, bad, or are you indifferent?

Matt: I'm not indifferent. I think that it is unavoidable at this point, but it should be regulated and like you can't use a device when you're like by yourself, you have to be in a common area. Yeah, it's, you know, it's time constrained. Now, something that we will do, like I mentioned how much the boys both the boys enjoy drawing and art is like, and like, I pay for YouTube Premium, which I do think is more expensive than it should be, but the ability for me to download YouTube videos, even just to the app, and then like, not be connected to normal YouTube, but then like, hey, you can, you want to spend 30 minutes drawing?

 Let's pick these videos. I'm going to download them. Turn on airplane mode. That way they're just watching those three videos. That's something we try and do. I mean, I think that people saying, like, no screen time for kids. Now, I think, like, they should be a certain age. That's for everyone to figure out.

But to say no screen time, I think it's just not. Not useful advice. Like now and will be less useful. So I think like teaching our kids to have a good relationship with technology is something. I had a lot more screen time than like my parents did obviously. And that's nothing compared to what my kids are dealing with now.

And I owe my career to the internet. So to like. Kind of, like, demonize it for my kids, doesn't, again, like, feels kind of hypocritical. But I do think, like, just like I'm trying to limit my own self, this isn’t very rapid fire. Just as I'm trying to limit myself in some ways, I'm trying to, like, teach that habit to them.

Adam: All right. Continuing with Rapid Fire, what is the longest that you have gone without bathing your kids?

Matt: Three days.

Adam: Have you ever used your kids as an excuse to get out of social events, despite being a very social guy?

Matt: Not really. No, my, my wife has.

Adam: Which Disney, Pixar, DreamWorks movie are you secretly a fan of?

Matt: Not secretly, Inside Out

Adam: Oh, great film. Yes.

Matt: It’s a great way to talk to your kids about emotions, also.

Adam: Ah, love that. What is your worst kids furniture or toy assembly experience?

Matt: This isn't quite kid related, but I had a hell of a time trying to, like, hang blackout curtains.

The kids' rooms and like I couldn't quite get the anchors right or I used the wrong anchors and then like I didn't measure properly. It's all very embarrassing for me as a man I guess. But like they're just like hanging by a thread and like one time kid just like wrapped himself up in it and it collapsed and is supposed to be bedtime.

But I was upset because I did such a pissy job of hanging them. So, that, yeah, blackout curtains.

Adam: I find myself tightening up just hearing that story. You have three kids. You live in Tennessee. What is your take on minivans?

Matt: I'm a fan. I'm a fan of the van. I wish that I wasn't, but, they're so convenient, and there's so much space, and, It's sliding doors. I'll say like I like minivans. I don't like our van because it's still a little old and the door catches sometimes And like the air conditioning can be a little janky during the summer, So I'm a fan of minivans, but not mine specifically. Sorry spirit of the van.

Adam: That's okay. The last time I went to Nashville, I rented a minivan. So, was a fan of driving it around in town.

Matt: And the sliding doors by themselves like to not have to like Open it, and try to like,not hit it.

Adam: Love that. All right. Well, Matt, with that, we are at time. Thank you very much for joining me today on the program. It was a pleasure having you. I learned a lot and thank you for sharing all of your thoughts on fatherhood and family.

Matt: Yeah. Thank you, Adam. It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Adam: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Matt Ragland. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review. It helps other people find this podcast. Startup Dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Heron. You can join a community of over 9,000 subscribers and stay up to date on my thoughts on growth, product, and parenting by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter.com Thanks for listening. See you next week.