Building an "Indistractable" Household and Forming Healthy Habits | Nir Eyal (father of 1, author of Hooked & Indistractable)

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Nir Eyal: Remember, distraction
is not a new phenomenon, right?

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Plato, the Greek philosopher, 2, 500 years
ago, 2, 500 years before the internet,

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Plato was complaining about distraction.

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He called it a curtsy, the tendency to
do things against our better interests.

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So if people have been complaining about
distraction for 2, 500 years, it's not

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the internet that caused this problem.

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Adam Fishman: Welcome to
Startup Dad, the podcaster.

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We dive deep into the lives of
dads who are also leaders in the

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world of startups and business.

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I'm your host, Adam Fishman.

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In today's conversation,
I sat down with Nir Eyal.

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Nir is the best selling author of Hooked,
How to Build Habit Forming Products,

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and Indistractable, How to Control
Your Attention and Choose Your Life.

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They have collectively sold over
1 million copies in over 30 years.

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30 languages.

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He also co founded and sold two
tech companies and now consults and

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teaches about the intersection of
psychology, technology, and business.

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He's a husband and the
father of one daughter.

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In our conversation today, we went
deep on the lessons shared in both

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Hooker And indistractable with a
specific focus on what parents can do

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to avoid distraction and build healthy
habits in themselves and their kids.

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Near shared examples from his books
as well as his own life and efforts on

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building an indistractable household.

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We also talked about habit formation
and the role of extrinsic versus

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intrinsic rewards, limit setting,
and some of his thoughts on why kids

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reach for phones and technology today.

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The reasons will surprise you and
took us into a fascinating journey

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on topics around self determination
theory and the science of motivation.

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Nir will teach you a lot of
strategies that you can put into

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practice right away with your kids.

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I would like to welcome Nir
Eyal to the Startup Dad podcast.

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Nir, it is a pleasure having
you on the program today.

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Thank you for joining me.

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Thank you

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Nir Eyal: so much.

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Thank you, Adam.

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Great to be here.

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Adam Fishman: So we're going to talk
today about Advice for parents based

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on the lessons that you share in your
two books, Hooked and Indistractable.

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And we're going to bookend it a little
bit with some questions about your

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own life because I would be remiss
if I didn't give the listeners a

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little bit of history about you.

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But we're going to spend just
a tiny amount of time on that.

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So I do want to jump in and just ask
you a little bit Where did you grow up?

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What was life like growing up?

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What were you like as a kid?

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Nir Eyal: So I was born in
Israel, but I moved to America

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when I was three years old.

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I moved to Central Florida, and this
was in 1981, so a long time ago.

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And I had this weird name that no
one knew how to place me, like what

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ethnicity I was, where I came from.

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And so I always kind of felt
like an outsider, to be honest.

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I think a lot of people have that
experience, but particularly for

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me, you know, every time I would
introduce myself, Hey, my name's

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near, near, like near and far.

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What do you mean near?

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And so, you know, the central Florida is
at least used to be kind of is still a

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little bit, but it's kind of deep Southie.

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So in many ways I tried to, Get the
best of the cultures that I live in.

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So today I live in Singapore before
that I lived in New York City

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before that I lived in the Bay Area
before that I lived in Atlanta.

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So I've been bouncing around quite a
bit, but as a kid, I think probably

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one of the things that defined my
childhood was that I was clinically

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obese and not just overweight.

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I remember going to the doctor's office
with my mom and the doctor saying,

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Hey, look, kid, this is normal weight.

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On the chart, you know, the
green zone, that's normal.

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Wait, here's overweight.

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That's orange.

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Here's you, you're in the
red zone, you're obese.

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And so actually I think, you know, if I
trace back, like, what's my fascination

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with consumer behavior and consumer
psychology, it probably traces back to

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that, that I felt that for a good chunk
of my life, that food controlled me.

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And at first, my knee jerk reaction
was to blame the food companies, right?

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It's the Twinkies, it's McDonald's,
it's Coca Cola doing it to me.

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And it wasn't until I got that under
control and realized, like, the deeper

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influences of why I was overeating, right?

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Like, if you talk to people who are
obese and they're really honest with

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you, at least in my case, I don't want
to generalize, but for me, I wasn't

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obese because I was hungry a lot.

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I didn't eat because I was hungry.

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I was overeating because I
was eating my feelings, right?

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I was eating when I was lonely.

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I was eating when I was bored.

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I was eating when I felt ashamed
about how much I had just eaten.

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And so that was, I think, my fascination
with products and the deeper reasons

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why we consume and over consume.

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And so that led me to eventually
start a couple of companies.

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And then later I taught at the Hasselblad
Institute of Design at Stanford.

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And then later at the graduate school of
business at Stanford, where I developed

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my work around how to build habit
forming products, which is about how to.

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Build good habits in
the technologies we use.

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And then after that I wrote
indistractable, which is the other side

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of the coin, which is, you know, if hooked
is about how do we build good habits in

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distractibles, how do we break bad habits
and more with a tilt towards technology

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habits, because that's the thing that
so many of us are struggling today is

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how do we make sure we don't overuse
or abuse these wonderful tools that

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sometimes can be too much of a good thing.

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Adam Fishman: Yeah.

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And we're going to spend a lot of time
talking about that today, which I think

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is super important for the audience of
folks who listen to this before we get

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into that, I just wanted to ask you
a little bit about your family now.

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So you have a partner and you have
a teenage daughter, as I understand.

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Is that

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Nir Eyal: right?

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Yeah, my wife and I, Julie, have
been married for 23 years now.

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Congratulations.

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Yeah, thank you.

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And my daughter is 15 and we live in
Singapore now, but we've been here for

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about four years before that we lived in
New York and we homeschool my daughter.

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So she's been homeschooled
since the first grade.

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Adam Fishman: Okay, well, let's dive into
some of the lessons learned in your books.

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And I want to start with Indistractable.

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We'll kind of work backwards to Hooked.

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Because for me personally, and one
thing that I'm curious about is,

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No, when you introduce kids to your
life, that adds a layer of potential

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distraction for busy parents.

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And so my first thing, and we'll
kind of get into all of the

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topics around the distractible.

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But what advice do you have for parents
who are, you know, thinking about a

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family and the potential distractions?

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I hate to think of our kids as a
distraction, but sometimes they are.

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But how do you think about that?

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Both avoiding distraction from your
kids and then also avoiding your own

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distractions to be more present and
pay more attention to your family?

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Nir Eyal: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So this is a huge topic, right?

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This is the subject of my entire
book and over a decade of research.

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But I think the best place to start
is to understand what is distraction.

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Right.

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Let's kind of define this for ourselves.

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So we know what we're talking about.

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I'm kind of a word nerd, and
it's important to clarify

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what we're talking about.

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The best way to understand what
distraction is to understand

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what distraction is not what's
the opposite of distraction.

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So when people say, I don't want to
get distracted, what do they mean?

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They say, I want to be focused.

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They think focus is the
opposite of distraction.

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That's not exactly right.

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The opposite of distraction is not focus.

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The opposite of distraction is traction.

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Okay, they're opposites, obviously,
until I put the words next to each other.

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I never actually realized this,
but you've got traction and

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then you've got distraction.

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They're opposites.

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They actually both come from the same
Latin root, Trahare, which means to pull.

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They also end in the same six letter
word, A C T I O N, that spells action.

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Reminding us that distraction is
not something that happens to us.

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Most people think, Oh, it's my kids.

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It's my phone.

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It's the news.

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It's these things that distracted me.

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That's not actually accurate.

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These things are actions
that you yourself take.

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So traction by definition is any
action pulls you towards what

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you said you were going to do.

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Things you do with intent, things
that move you closer to your

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values and help you become the
kind of person you want to become.

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Those are acts of traction.

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The opposite, distraction, is any
action that pulls you away from

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what you plan to do, away from
your values, away from becoming the

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kind of person you want to become.

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So this is really important.

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This isn't just semantics, because I
would argue that any action that is

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done with intent, Is what you wanted
to do ahead of time is traction,

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including the hobgoblins, right?

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All the evil things that
we think are distractions.

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I think none of those are distraction
unless you are not doing them with intent.

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So as Dorothy Parker said, the time
you plan to waste is not wasted time.

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Unfortunately, we believe this narrative
that there are certain behaviors that

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are somehow morally wrong, that they're
time wasters, and some things are okay.

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And I think that's ridiculous.

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Why is playing a video game somehow
morally inferior to watching sports on TV?

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There's no difference.

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There's nothing wrong with either of
them, as long as it's done with intent,

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as long as it's done with forethought.

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So we need to stop moralizing
and medicalizing for ourselves

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and for our kids, these pastimes.

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If you want to watch a movie on Netflix,
if you want to listen to a podcast, if

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you want to play a video game, whatever
it is you want to do, do it without

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guilt, but do it on your schedule and
according to your values, Not someone

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else's now it's an act of traction.

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And just because it's a work related task
doesn't mean it can't be a distraction.

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So for example, for me, I would sit
down at my desk for years and I'd

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say, okay, now I'm going to focus.

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Now I'm going to concentrate.

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Nothing's going to get in my way.

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I'm not going to get distracted.

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I'm not going to procrastinate.

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Here I go.

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I'm going to get started on this big
project, but first let me check email.

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Right.

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And I would justify to myself,
Oh, that's a work related task.

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I'm being productive.

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I got to do it anyway, at some point.

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But if it's not what you said you
were going to do ahead of time, it

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is by definition of distraction.

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So now we got traction.

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We got distraction.

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Now what leads us towards
traction and distraction?

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We have our triggers.

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We have what we call external triggers.

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External triggers are the usual suspects.

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It's the pings, the dings, the rings, your
kids, your boss, anything in the outside

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environment that tells you what to do.

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Those are external triggers.

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Now, this is, you know, per
your first question, this is

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what people tend to focus on.

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Okay, how do I remove
the external triggers?

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And that's fine and dandy, but
studies find that is only 10%

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of the cause of distraction.

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Only 10 percent of the time that you check
your phone, for example, are you checking

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it because of a ping, ding, or ring?

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What's the other 90%?

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The other 90 percent of the
time we check our devices.

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The other 90 percent of
the time we get distracted.

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It's not because of the external triggers.

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It's because of what we
call external triggers.

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Internal triggers.

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And this is really important.

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This blew my mind when I did this
research, it turns out that 90 percent

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of the time that we get distracted,
it's because of an uncomfortable,

00:10:23.020 --> 00:10:28.920
emotional state, boredom, loneliness,
fatigue, guilt, anxiety, stress.

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That is the source of 90
percent of our distractions.

00:10:31.699 --> 00:10:36.947
So it doesn't matter if you figured out
how to avoid an external trigger, like

00:10:36.947 --> 00:10:41.109
your kids or your boss, your phone or
Facebook or whatever, it doesn't matter.

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If you don't figure out the root
cause of the problem, you will

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always get distracted by something.

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Whether it's too much news, too
much booze, too much football, too

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much Facebook, you are going to get
distracted unless you understand that

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distraction for you and your kids
is an emotion regulation problem.

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It's not a moral failing.

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Your brain isn't broken.

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The media is not conspiring against you.

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Your kids are not trying to distract you.

00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:09.970
It's simply that you don't know
how to deal With discomfort, that

00:11:09.980 --> 00:11:11.100
is the root cause of the problem.

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So step number one is mastering
the internal triggers or

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they will become your master.

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And we can talk about all the
strategies you can use for that.

00:11:18.230 --> 00:11:21.249
Step number two is about
making time for traction.

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If you don't plan your day, somebody
is going to plan it for you.

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Okay.

00:11:25.765 --> 00:11:30.435
So if you want to spend time with your
kids or scroll Facebook or watch a movie

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or play video games or whatever it is
you want to do, that's fine, but you

00:11:34.314 --> 00:11:38.965
have to plan time for it because you
cannot say you got distracted unless

00:11:38.965 --> 00:11:40.355
you know what you got distracted from.

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I'm going to say that again.

00:11:41.185 --> 00:11:44.874
You have no right to say you
got distracted unless you know

00:11:44.875 --> 00:11:46.225
what you got distracted from.

00:11:46.755 --> 00:11:50.415
So if you didn't plan time to do one
thing and then you started checking

00:11:50.415 --> 00:11:53.585
Facebook or your kid popped in your
room or whatever, if you didn't

00:11:53.585 --> 00:11:54.875
plan what you were going to do.

00:11:55.285 --> 00:11:56.035
You can't complain.

00:11:56.454 --> 00:11:58.015
Cause what did you get distracted from?

00:11:58.015 --> 00:11:59.864
And we can talk about exactly
what do you do about that?

00:11:59.944 --> 00:12:00.074
Okay.

00:12:00.074 --> 00:12:03.395
There's some very excellent strategies,
well studied strategies around how to

00:12:03.395 --> 00:12:04.814
make time for traction in your day.

00:12:05.205 --> 00:12:06.265
Step number three.

00:12:06.515 --> 00:12:09.074
Now we hack back the external triggers.

00:12:09.335 --> 00:12:12.015
Now we talk about the pings, dings
and rings, your kids, your boss,

00:12:12.035 --> 00:12:13.775
whatever meetings, all that stuff.

00:12:14.185 --> 00:12:17.295
Now that 10 percent of distractions
that come from external triggers,

00:12:17.295 --> 00:12:18.014
we should talk about them.

00:12:18.285 --> 00:12:19.884
But again, that's not the
root cause of the problem.

00:12:20.275 --> 00:12:22.965
Then step number four to becoming
indistractable is preventing

00:12:22.965 --> 00:12:23.634
distraction with external triggers.

00:12:24.485 --> 00:12:28.125
is where we use a firewall against
distraction, the last line of defense.

00:12:28.584 --> 00:12:31.694
So I just want to set the stage kind
of, so we understand this model and

00:12:31.694 --> 00:12:34.594
this is what we can use ourselves
as parents to become indistractable.

00:12:34.795 --> 00:12:38.104
So what we should teach our kids on how
they can become indistractable as well.

00:12:38.394 --> 00:12:41.284
So I just want to put in context,
kind of where these things fit in.

00:12:41.285 --> 00:12:42.140
So, Okay.

00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:46.310
Now that we have the map, let's talk
about specifically your question was one.

00:12:46.310 --> 00:12:48.140
How do we prevent our
kids from distracting us?

00:12:48.140 --> 00:12:48.250
Was

00:12:48.260 --> 00:12:48.920
Adam Fishman: that was the question?

00:12:49.190 --> 00:12:49.510
Yeah.

00:12:49.510 --> 00:12:55.310
One is as parents, when you have kids,
they are a natural, they love to come

00:12:55.310 --> 00:12:57.850
in at the absolute inopportune time.

00:12:58.060 --> 00:13:01.520
You're right in the middle of a
meeting like the BBC dad at the

00:13:01.520 --> 00:13:04.640
beginning of the pandemic where the
kid busts into the room, you know?

00:13:04.730 --> 00:13:05.460
So that's sort of one.

00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:08.540
And then the other one in, you kind
of started to get at this with.

00:13:09.055 --> 00:13:13.835
The reasons for distraction and it
being about being more intentional

00:13:14.125 --> 00:13:15.755
with making time for traction.

00:13:16.005 --> 00:13:22.544
But yeah, but what do you do as a parent
if you want to prioritize time with your

00:13:22.544 --> 00:13:26.904
kids and not pick up your phone and not
sort of, you know, do something else?

00:13:26.914 --> 00:13:27.884
So I guess it's twofold.

00:13:28.115 --> 00:13:30.845
One, what do you do when
the kids are a distraction?

00:13:30.865 --> 00:13:33.255
And two, what How do you
cut off everything else

00:13:33.255 --> 00:13:34.865
and make time for the kids?

00:13:35.444 --> 00:13:35.765
Nir Eyal: Yeah.

00:13:35.824 --> 00:13:36.074
Okay.

00:13:36.074 --> 00:13:37.454
So let's deal with the easier one.

00:13:37.454 --> 00:13:39.425
What do you do about your
kids being a distraction?

00:13:39.425 --> 00:13:40.114
And they are, right?

00:13:40.114 --> 00:13:42.954
Like we talk about external triggers
around your phone and all this

00:13:42.954 --> 00:13:43.744
other stuff in your environment.

00:13:44.025 --> 00:13:45.194
Well, kids are wonderful.

00:13:45.194 --> 00:13:47.214
We love them to death, but they
can certainly be a distraction.

00:13:47.504 --> 00:13:49.354
So I'll give you one very easy one.

00:13:49.464 --> 00:13:52.114
Practical tool that we
use in my household.

00:13:52.114 --> 00:13:55.545
Starting when my daughter was
just six years old, my wife went

00:13:55.574 --> 00:13:58.735
on Amazon and she bought what
we call the concentration crown.

00:13:58.855 --> 00:14:02.114
The concentration crown is
this cost about six bucks.

00:14:02.354 --> 00:14:05.784
It's this little light up
wreath that she wears every time

00:14:05.784 --> 00:14:06.954
she needs to do focused work.

00:14:07.280 --> 00:14:07.450
Okay.

00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:10.610
So what she's doing is essentially
interrupting the interruption

00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:13.110
because frankly, like we got
to give our kids some slack.

00:14:13.420 --> 00:14:18.420
They don't know when we're busy because
busy looks the same as playing, right?

00:14:18.470 --> 00:14:23.119
If you're watching a YouTube video, they
can't tell that that's not work, right?

00:14:23.130 --> 00:14:23.630
Or is work.

00:14:23.640 --> 00:14:26.470
They don't know because all they see is
you typing away on your computer, looking

00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:28.569
at your screen, how are they to know?

00:14:28.795 --> 00:14:30.485
When and when you cannot be interrupted.

00:14:30.875 --> 00:14:33.825
So we sat down with my daughter and we
said, look, when mommy is wearing the

00:14:33.835 --> 00:14:35.255
concentration crown, you can't miss it.

00:14:35.255 --> 00:14:36.775
Cause it has these light up led lights.

00:14:36.784 --> 00:14:37.074
Right.

00:14:37.445 --> 00:14:39.855
And you can use a funny hat and you don't
have to get the concentration crown.

00:14:39.855 --> 00:14:42.045
You can just go find a
funny hat or something.

00:14:42.045 --> 00:14:45.614
If your kid is of that age and you
say, look, when mommy is wearing

00:14:45.614 --> 00:14:50.814
the concentration crown, she cannot
be interrupted for 30 minutes.

00:14:50.915 --> 00:14:53.775
Meaning when you have
that work block, okay.

00:14:54.065 --> 00:14:57.315
For us, it was 30 minutes and
we told my daughter, the only

00:14:57.315 --> 00:15:01.624
reason you can interrupt mommy
is if you're bleeding, right?

00:15:02.305 --> 00:15:05.165
If you are bleeding, that's a
good reason to interrupt mommy.

00:15:05.185 --> 00:15:08.385
But if mommy is wearing the concentration
crown, and this probably won't work

00:15:08.395 --> 00:15:10.734
for kids younger than six years old,
there's other strategies for kids

00:15:10.744 --> 00:15:14.704
that are super young, like having
someone else, another adult be on duty.

00:15:15.145 --> 00:15:18.545
But for kids six years old and
older, they will get this, right?

00:15:18.645 --> 00:15:21.635
That unless you're bleeding, you are
not to interrupt mommy when she's

00:15:21.635 --> 00:15:22.645
wearing the concentration crown.

00:15:22.925 --> 00:15:25.745
This is if you don't have, uh, A door
you can shut, of course, if you have

00:15:25.885 --> 00:15:26.725
a special room that you can shut.

00:15:26.725 --> 00:15:29.405
And for me, I've got this door
hanger thing for 2 that says,

00:15:29.405 --> 00:15:31.075
do not disturb on my door.

00:15:31.075 --> 00:15:33.825
So when I'm working in my office,
okay, that was a clear signal to

00:15:33.845 --> 00:15:36.215
my daughter, but for my wife, when
she was wearing the concentration

00:15:36.215 --> 00:15:38.565
crown, this worked unbelievably well.

00:15:38.615 --> 00:15:40.615
It works like a charm
100 percent of the time.

00:15:40.884 --> 00:15:42.594
It also works not only with children.

00:15:42.634 --> 00:15:46.765
It works really well with husbands,
by the way, to my wife all the time.

00:15:46.765 --> 00:15:48.075
Say, Oh honey, can I just ask you some?

00:15:48.635 --> 00:15:49.455
I'm working right now.

00:15:49.465 --> 00:15:49.735
All right.

00:15:49.755 --> 00:15:50.415
I'm indistractable.

00:15:50.855 --> 00:15:52.255
I didn't know you were indistractable.

00:15:52.475 --> 00:15:53.295
Okay, great.

00:15:53.345 --> 00:15:55.525
Now, when she wears a concentration
crown, it's very clear.

00:15:55.525 --> 00:15:56.505
She cannot be disturbed.

00:15:56.755 --> 00:15:58.615
So that's a very easy tactic.

00:15:58.615 --> 00:16:00.774
That's just one of dozens of
different things you can do.

00:16:00.994 --> 00:16:03.745
But I think here's the deeper reason
we talked about external triggers.

00:16:03.994 --> 00:16:07.035
Now I know some parents are listening
and saying, yeah, but I can't do that.

00:16:07.035 --> 00:16:07.995
What if my kid needs me?

00:16:08.660 --> 00:16:09.050
Right?

00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:10.660
I'm sure some people are saying that.

00:16:10.670 --> 00:16:12.080
Like, I couldn't do that with my kid.

00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:12.870
My kid's gonna need me.

00:16:13.410 --> 00:16:14.900
Now, let's interrogate that.

00:16:14.969 --> 00:16:16.770
Because let me tell you, I've
been doing this for over a decade.

00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.760
I have heard thousands of excuses from
thousands of people telling me why this

00:16:21.760 --> 00:16:23.339
technique or that technique won't work.

00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:28.589
And at the core, almost all
these excuses, I've never heard

00:16:28.589 --> 00:16:30.109
one that is a good excuse.

00:16:30.479 --> 00:16:35.239
At the core of these excuses
tends to be not objective facts,

00:16:35.609 --> 00:16:37.899
but subjective perception.

00:16:38.255 --> 00:16:40.815
Of those facts, which
result in negative feelings.

00:16:41.845 --> 00:16:44.925
So when we took this bold step
and said, honey, don't interrupt

00:16:44.945 --> 00:16:46.815
mommy, unless you're bleeding.

00:16:47.315 --> 00:16:51.305
That means that we need to be okay
with her being a little bored.

00:16:52.185 --> 00:16:52.545
Right?

00:16:52.945 --> 00:16:53.975
So what?

00:16:54.474 --> 00:16:54.804
Right.

00:16:54.814 --> 00:16:58.034
It's a good skill to learn
how to be bored, right?

00:16:58.064 --> 00:16:59.235
Go do something else.

00:16:59.235 --> 00:17:01.225
You've got coloring
books, you've got games.

00:17:01.375 --> 00:17:03.795
You could go across the
hall and find a friend.

00:17:04.005 --> 00:17:05.765
There's all kinds of stuff you could do.

00:17:06.170 --> 00:17:06.510
Right.

00:17:06.540 --> 00:17:07.599
To keep yourself busy.

00:17:07.899 --> 00:17:12.480
But we, as parents are so terrified,
we're so scared that something might

00:17:12.490 --> 00:17:13.899
happen and our kid might need us.

00:17:13.899 --> 00:17:16.710
That's why we don't even bother to
plan the time to do our focused work.

00:17:17.149 --> 00:17:21.849
What we are doing is giving ourselves
an excuse to not do the hard work.

00:17:22.264 --> 00:17:25.974
That we know we need to do and that's
nothing more than an excuse, but it's an

00:17:25.974 --> 00:17:31.155
excuse prompted by a feeling a subjective
perception of reality, not reality itself.

00:17:31.185 --> 00:17:33.185
It's the fear that we might be needed.

00:17:33.315 --> 00:17:34.275
It's the stress.

00:17:34.275 --> 00:17:37.745
It's the anxiety that we might
need to do the hard task, not

00:17:37.754 --> 00:17:38.935
the objective fact itself.

00:17:39.494 --> 00:17:40.364
Adam Fishman: Yeah, that's interesting.

00:17:40.365 --> 00:17:44.035
Kind of gets back to that whole concept
that you mentioned about the emotion.

00:17:44.515 --> 00:17:47.005
The sort of emotional
underpinning of these things.

00:17:47.005 --> 00:17:50.804
It's you're kind of avoiding
This thing that you need to do

00:17:50.824 --> 00:17:54.415
because it's going to be hard or
uncomfortable or right something

00:17:54.625 --> 00:17:57.824
Nir Eyal: I gotta go exercise or I
need to go do my taxes or I need to

00:17:57.824 --> 00:18:00.924
clean the house or I need to Organize
my books whatever the case might

00:18:00.924 --> 00:18:03.965
be We need to fundamentally I can't
emphasize this enough because people

00:18:03.965 --> 00:18:07.554
don't want to believe this is true
But it is absolutely the case that

00:18:07.554 --> 00:18:14.350
distraction is a symptom of dysfunction
It's a symptom of our inability.

00:18:14.350 --> 00:18:15.780
By the way, I'm patient zero here.

00:18:15.850 --> 00:18:18.090
You know, it took me five
years to write in distractible.

00:18:18.090 --> 00:18:19.430
It took me five years to write this book.

00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:19.950
Why?

00:18:20.120 --> 00:18:24.270
Cause I kept getting distracted
and it wasn't until I learned these

00:18:24.270 --> 00:18:26.880
techniques for myself, because
we're not taught this in school.

00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:30.700
You, I never had a class on
emotion regulation, but it

00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:32.590
is the most important skill.

00:18:32.845 --> 00:18:37.715
If there is one skill that we have got to
teach our children in this age of all of

00:18:37.715 --> 00:18:40.925
these distractions in the world, right,
virtual reality, augmented reality, and

00:18:40.925 --> 00:18:42.644
all the crap that's happening in reality.

00:18:43.024 --> 00:18:47.014
If you don't have this fundamental skill
to regulate your emotion, if you are

00:18:47.014 --> 00:18:50.784
one of these people who is constantly
flirting with, you know, every time

00:18:50.785 --> 00:18:53.865
I feel bad, I need a drink, I need
to click, I need something to take my

00:18:53.865 --> 00:18:55.985
mind off of what's happening right now.

00:18:56.435 --> 00:18:59.035
If you are one of those
people, you are a sucker.

00:18:59.425 --> 00:19:00.065
You're a sucker.

00:19:00.455 --> 00:19:02.405
The media will manipulate you.

00:19:02.585 --> 00:19:03.945
Other people will manipulate you.

00:19:03.945 --> 00:19:05.185
Your boss will manipulate you.

00:19:05.185 --> 00:19:06.515
Your kids will manipulate you.

00:19:06.835 --> 00:19:10.915
Unless you stand up and say, hey,
hey, hey, I'm indistractable.

00:19:11.215 --> 00:19:14.455
I control what I do with my time
and my attention, not someone else.

00:19:14.905 --> 00:19:17.065
Adam Fishman: I'm putting on
the concentration crown now.

00:19:17.495 --> 00:19:18.205
I love that.

00:19:18.445 --> 00:19:22.825
So I wanted to ask because, you know,
to get to a point where you're doing

00:19:22.825 --> 00:19:26.974
something like the concentration
crown or the sign on the door, you

00:19:26.975 --> 00:19:30.185
and your spouse have to be on the
same page about what this means.

00:19:30.185 --> 00:19:31.865
You said we had to sit down.

00:19:32.105 --> 00:19:33.234
We bought the things.

00:19:33.234 --> 00:19:34.975
We had a conversation with our daughter.

00:19:35.495 --> 00:19:37.155
I'm sure there's been
more of those moments.

00:19:37.155 --> 00:19:39.744
But what are some of the kind
of strategies that you do?

00:19:39.995 --> 00:19:45.495
employ with your wife to get on
that same page about, you know,

00:19:45.505 --> 00:19:51.014
how you're going to teach your kids
about distraction or good habits.

00:19:51.155 --> 00:19:54.314
Nir Eyal: You know, I think the
fear that so many parents have,

00:19:54.475 --> 00:19:56.164
and some of this is very warranted.

00:19:56.840 --> 00:20:01.360
that our Children are being distracted
and manipulated by technology.

00:20:01.949 --> 00:20:06.750
We need to lean into that and maybe
even use that as the catalyst to have

00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:08.070
that conversation with our spouse.

00:20:08.529 --> 00:20:10.739
Because, you know, I get asked
all the time, how do I help

00:20:10.739 --> 00:20:11.789
my kids become indistractible?

00:20:11.849 --> 00:20:14.409
And in fact, there's a whole chapter
in the book, a whole section of the

00:20:14.409 --> 00:20:17.630
book, I should say, that's about
how to raise indistractible kids.

00:20:17.630 --> 00:20:20.090
And I think it's the most important
section of the book because

00:20:20.090 --> 00:20:22.960
again, this is the most important
skill you can teach your kid.

00:20:23.170 --> 00:20:23.430
Right?

00:20:23.430 --> 00:20:27.730
Because if you can't concentrate on a book
long enough to gain that wisdom, well,

00:20:27.730 --> 00:20:28.930
then it's like you didn't even read it.

00:20:29.420 --> 00:20:29.750
Right?

00:20:29.770 --> 00:20:32.850
When they go to college, when they get a
job, if they can't focus their attention,

00:20:33.530 --> 00:20:35.139
they're gonna be a slave to other people.

00:20:35.310 --> 00:20:37.340
So we've got to teach our kids
how to focus their attention.

00:20:37.340 --> 00:20:38.510
It is the most important skill.

00:20:39.109 --> 00:20:40.900
So, what do we do about that?

00:20:41.110 --> 00:20:41.370
Right?

00:20:41.389 --> 00:20:43.459
The first step, there's many
steps here that you can take.

00:20:43.459 --> 00:20:44.280
I'm happy to dive into it.

00:20:44.300 --> 00:20:48.110
The first and most important step, if
you want to raise indistractable kids,

00:20:48.949 --> 00:20:50.679
Is to become an indistractable parent.

00:20:51.899 --> 00:20:54.850
I can't tell you how many parents
I've met with over the years that tell

00:20:54.850 --> 00:20:56.550
me my kid won't get off fortnight.

00:20:56.550 --> 00:20:59.400
They're constantly playing the video
games and they're always on Tik TOK.

00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:01.289
And meanwhile, while they're
telling me this, they're checking

00:21:01.290 --> 00:21:02.939
Facebook or checking email, right?

00:21:03.360 --> 00:21:03.649
Yep.

00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:04.080
Okay.

00:21:04.449 --> 00:21:05.989
Kids are born with.

00:21:06.560 --> 00:21:09.129
These invisible antennae, you
can't see them, but they're

00:21:09.129 --> 00:21:10.379
there as soon as the baby's born.

00:21:10.780 --> 00:21:15.950
These invisible antennae that this is what
we call the hypocrisy detection device.

00:21:16.590 --> 00:21:19.899
Okay, your kids come pre installed
with these invisible antennae

00:21:19.899 --> 00:21:22.889
that are constantly scanning
to see where you screw up.

00:21:23.810 --> 00:21:25.760
So we have got to stop being hypocrites.

00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.250
And if we want to raise
indistractable kids, we have

00:21:28.250 --> 00:21:29.320
to be indistractable parents.

00:21:29.580 --> 00:21:32.600
That is the best thing you can
do to prepare your kids for the

00:21:32.600 --> 00:21:35.409
future is to show them by example
and to tell them you're struggling.

00:21:35.670 --> 00:21:35.900
Right.

00:21:35.900 --> 00:21:39.270
To tell them, look, these devices
are designed to be distracting.

00:21:39.280 --> 00:21:40.000
That's the point.

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:41.800
They're designed to be
engaging and entertaining.

00:21:42.110 --> 00:21:45.300
Not to scare your kids, but to show
them, look, that's the reality.

00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:46.439
And that's a good thing, right?

00:21:46.439 --> 00:21:50.269
The price of all this progress
is stuff we want to use, right?

00:21:50.269 --> 00:21:50.880
What are we going to tell?

00:21:51.040 --> 00:21:53.309
Hey, Netflix, stop making
your shows so interesting.

00:21:53.310 --> 00:21:54.164
I want to watch them.

00:21:54.345 --> 00:21:57.445
Hey, Apple, stop making your
devices so user friendly because

00:21:57.445 --> 00:21:58.274
I want to use them a lot.

00:21:58.415 --> 00:21:59.205
No, that's stupid.

00:21:59.325 --> 00:22:03.274
The price of progress is that we need to
learn how to use these tools in a way that

00:22:03.274 --> 00:22:05.955
serves us as opposed to us serving them.

00:22:06.385 --> 00:22:06.565
So

00:22:06.575 --> 00:22:11.305
Adam Fishman: step one in the getting on
the same page with your spouse on this

00:22:11.314 --> 00:22:15.875
is talking about what are the behaviors
that we want to model to our kids?

00:22:15.875 --> 00:22:19.905
If we're on our phone all the time
and with our head down, like How can

00:22:19.905 --> 00:22:22.385
we expect them to be prioritizing

00:22:22.555 --> 00:22:23.005
Nir Eyal: paying attention?

00:22:23.375 --> 00:22:24.605
And frankly, let's be honest here.

00:22:24.605 --> 00:22:28.264
You know, if you're sitting at the dinner
table and you can't have dinner with your

00:22:28.264 --> 00:22:32.104
family without checking your phone or
you can't have dinner with your family

00:22:32.104 --> 00:22:36.664
without giving your phone to your kids,
that is not the phone's fault, folks.

00:22:37.455 --> 00:22:37.765
Yeah.

00:22:37.805 --> 00:22:38.435
That is not the phone.

00:22:39.064 --> 00:22:42.175
That is something that we are doing
to ourselves and it's got to stop.

00:22:42.175 --> 00:22:42.995
It drives me crazy.

00:22:42.995 --> 00:22:46.624
You go to a restaurant and people,
you know, everybody around the

00:22:46.625 --> 00:22:47.534
table is checking their phone.

00:22:47.545 --> 00:22:48.105
Why?

00:22:48.335 --> 00:22:49.884
That's one of the worst things you can do.

00:22:49.884 --> 00:22:53.184
We know that people who eat with
their children, children who eat

00:22:53.185 --> 00:22:56.975
with their families, who have regular
meals, where they have conversations,

00:22:56.975 --> 00:23:00.115
they have lower rates of depression,
lower rates of anxiety disorder.

00:23:00.115 --> 00:23:01.395
They have fewer eating disorders.

00:23:01.615 --> 00:23:05.015
There's so much benefit to having
a conversation with your family.

00:23:05.260 --> 00:23:09.030
Around the dinner table, around
the breakfast table, do not let

00:23:09.030 --> 00:23:11.429
that time be stolen by distraction.

00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:12.909
And it's not technology's fault.

00:23:12.909 --> 00:23:14.340
We love to blame the technology.

00:23:14.369 --> 00:23:15.370
It's our fault.

00:23:15.409 --> 00:23:17.289
We put those devices in our kids hands.

00:23:17.300 --> 00:23:18.559
We pay for the data plans.

00:23:18.750 --> 00:23:19.720
We pay for the phones.

00:23:20.350 --> 00:23:20.659
Right.

00:23:20.659 --> 00:23:23.730
And so by leading by example and showing,
Hey, look, this is a no phone zone.

00:23:23.730 --> 00:23:26.249
If we're going to be with each
other, we need to be present, both

00:23:26.249 --> 00:23:29.779
in body and mind, a huge thing
you can do to benefit your family.

00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:30.929
Yeah.

00:23:31.249 --> 00:23:32.889
Adam Fishman: One of the
things that you talked about.

00:23:33.430 --> 00:23:36.440
Is this idea of making time for traction?

00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:38.730
So let's say we're aware
of the internal triggers.

00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:43.849
We're aware of the external triggers and
we're going to make time for traction.

00:23:43.849 --> 00:23:50.509
How do you teach your kid how
to make time for traction?

00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:52.139
What's a way or ways that you

00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:52.739
Nir Eyal: can do that?

00:23:53.129 --> 00:23:53.520
Absolutely.

00:23:53.520 --> 00:23:57.889
So making time for traction is about
using this concept that does the most well

00:23:57.889 --> 00:24:01.710
studied time management technique in the
psychology literature, which is called

00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.079
setting an implementation intention, which
is a fancy way of saying planning out

00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:08.309
what you're going to do and when you're
going to do it highly, highly effective.

00:24:08.309 --> 00:24:11.519
It's over 30 pages of citations in
my book to peer reviewed studies.

00:24:11.830 --> 00:24:13.130
This is essential.

00:24:13.270 --> 00:24:15.570
So what you're doing is basically you're
just gonna plan out what you're gonna do

00:24:15.570 --> 00:24:17.480
and when you're going to do it for kids.

00:24:17.500 --> 00:24:20.649
This is relatively easy because most
of their day is spent at school.

00:24:21.304 --> 00:24:21.504
Right.

00:24:21.504 --> 00:24:24.784
And so one of the best things you
can do for your kid is to help them

00:24:24.814 --> 00:24:29.614
schedule their after school time, which
should include, okay, here's going to

00:24:29.614 --> 00:24:31.324
be a very counterintuitive insight.

00:24:31.495 --> 00:24:32.604
It's going to shock a lot of people.

00:24:33.015 --> 00:24:37.195
I want you to schedule time
for your kid's distraction.

00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:38.870
What are you talking about?

00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:41.250
Schedule time for the video games.

00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.200
Schedule time for whatever it is you
think they're doing too much of, that you

00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:46.530
wish they would stop doing all the time?

00:24:47.330 --> 00:24:48.089
Schedule time for it.

00:24:48.110 --> 00:24:48.690
Why?

00:24:49.169 --> 00:24:53.249
Because when you do that, you
are letting their brain stop

00:24:53.249 --> 00:24:55.440
ruminating on when can I do that?

00:24:55.965 --> 00:24:57.455
So, oh, you love to play Fortnite.

00:24:57.504 --> 00:24:59.554
You love to go on Minecraft,
whatever it is you like to do.

00:24:59.554 --> 00:25:01.235
Of course, make sure it's
age appropriate, right?

00:25:01.235 --> 00:25:04.534
If your kid is under 13, for God's
sakes, don't let them use social media.

00:25:04.584 --> 00:25:08.024
Then social media companies
tell you 13 is the minimum age.

00:25:08.054 --> 00:25:10.004
I can't tell you how many
parents I, it drives me nuts.

00:25:10.274 --> 00:25:12.215
Why are you letting your kids
use a product that the product

00:25:12.244 --> 00:25:14.705
manufacturer says, don't let
them use under a certain age.

00:25:14.975 --> 00:25:17.745
I think the age for social media
should be at least 16 plus, but

00:25:17.745 --> 00:25:19.044
that's personally what I believe.

00:25:19.044 --> 00:25:22.064
I think we're going to see regulation
more and more showing that.

00:25:23.170 --> 00:25:24.920
Let's say it's whatever it
is that they like to do.

00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:29.389
As long as age appropriate, when you
schedule time for it, what you are

00:25:29.389 --> 00:25:32.690
doing is you're letting their mind
stop ruminating on when can I play?

00:25:32.690 --> 00:25:33.180
When can I play?

00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:34.070
When can I play?

00:25:34.409 --> 00:25:36.870
You know, exactly when
you're going to play 7 PM.

00:25:36.879 --> 00:25:40.329
Hey, after dinner, after you, you
know, your chores are done 7 PM.

00:25:40.350 --> 00:25:43.179
That's time for Minecraft or
whatever it is that they like to do.

00:25:43.830 --> 00:25:44.800
So two things happen.

00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:46.740
One, they can stop ruminating two.

00:25:46.760 --> 00:25:49.389
They can time box how much time.

00:25:50.675 --> 00:25:53.995
So when my daughter was only six years
old, we found that she had a little

00:25:53.995 --> 00:25:55.875
bit of an iPad obsession, right?

00:25:55.885 --> 00:25:57.514
She would, iPad time,
iPad time, iPad time.

00:25:58.064 --> 00:26:01.274
And so as I started doing this research
around how to become indistractable,

00:26:01.344 --> 00:26:04.485
I discovered many of these techniques
and the academic literature.

00:26:04.854 --> 00:26:06.535
And so I sat down with
her at only six years old.

00:26:06.535 --> 00:26:08.095
I didn't believe this would
work, but it really did.

00:26:08.424 --> 00:26:11.145
I sat down with her and I said, honey,
look, there's nothing wrong with.

00:26:11.705 --> 00:26:12.574
Using the iPad.

00:26:12.574 --> 00:26:13.564
There's nothing wrong with technology.

00:26:13.564 --> 00:26:14.655
Don't scare your kids.

00:26:14.655 --> 00:26:15.074
By the way.

00:26:15.074 --> 00:26:17.145
One of the things that parents do,
they say, Oh, it's melting your brain.

00:26:17.145 --> 00:26:19.365
And I heard somewhere that it's
addictive and it's hijacking.

00:26:19.385 --> 00:26:23.125
Don't do that because the technologies
that we have, these are the things that

00:26:23.185 --> 00:26:25.064
are essential for their jobs, right?

00:26:25.064 --> 00:26:27.804
We don't want them to be scared of
technology because they're going to

00:26:27.804 --> 00:26:29.534
have to use them for their wellbeing.

00:26:29.534 --> 00:26:31.044
We want them to not be technophobic.

00:26:31.805 --> 00:26:37.295
So we said, look, the cost
of using the iPad is what you

00:26:37.325 --> 00:26:38.825
could be doing with your time.

00:26:39.460 --> 00:26:39.800
Right.

00:26:39.810 --> 00:26:41.440
You could go play with your friends.

00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:42.450
You could hang out with us.

00:26:42.450 --> 00:26:43.270
You could read a book.

00:26:43.280 --> 00:26:45.770
You could do all kinds of
other things with your time.

00:26:46.379 --> 00:26:50.940
So how much time do you want to
spend with your iPad per day?

00:26:51.390 --> 00:26:51.890
How much time?

00:26:52.630 --> 00:26:53.429
So she thought for a minute.

00:26:53.439 --> 00:26:55.650
She said, okay, well,
how about two episodes?

00:26:55.660 --> 00:26:57.340
She wasn't thinking in
terms of hours and minutes.

00:26:57.349 --> 00:27:00.150
She was thinking in terms of what she did
on the iPad and what she'd like to do on

00:27:00.150 --> 00:27:03.890
the iPad was watch episodes on Netflix
of whatever kids show she was watching.

00:27:04.460 --> 00:27:06.690
So she said, how about
two episodes per day?

00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:06.774
Okay.

00:27:06.925 --> 00:27:08.435
And she thought she was
getting one over on me.

00:27:08.445 --> 00:27:11.575
Well, look, two episodes,
that's about 45 minutes.

00:27:11.655 --> 00:27:16.245
There is not one study, not even
one, that shows that three hours

00:27:16.255 --> 00:27:20.144
or less of extracurricular screen
time has any deleterious effects.

00:27:20.455 --> 00:27:23.265
Okay, three hours or less, it turns out
is fine as long as it's age appropriate.

00:27:23.665 --> 00:27:25.314
45 minutes, sure, no big deal.

00:27:25.315 --> 00:27:26.585
But I said this, I didn't say that to her.

00:27:26.585 --> 00:27:30.864
I said, look, no problem, but I don't
want to be the police officer here, okay?

00:27:30.864 --> 00:27:33.245
I don't want to be the cop telling
you to turn off your device.

00:27:33.545 --> 00:27:38.225
How can you make sure That you're only
watching two episodes and no more.

00:27:38.965 --> 00:27:40.575
And she said, well, how about this daddy?

00:27:41.314 --> 00:27:45.164
Back then we had a kitchen counter
where the microwave was below the

00:27:45.165 --> 00:27:47.925
kitchen counter, and she would see us
using it from time to time as a timer.

00:27:48.145 --> 00:27:48.314
Okay.

00:27:48.314 --> 00:27:51.714
She would see us putting in a few
minutes here or there as a kitchen timer.

00:27:52.114 --> 00:27:55.434
And she said, what if I use
the microwave as a timer?

00:27:55.434 --> 00:27:57.365
And then when it beeps,
I'll stop using the iPad.

00:27:58.415 --> 00:27:58.935
Adam Fishman: Awesome.

00:27:59.324 --> 00:27:59.915
Great solution.

00:28:00.685 --> 00:28:01.995
Nir Eyal: Because now
what, what am I doing?

00:28:01.995 --> 00:28:04.324
I mean, the goal of parenting, what's
the big picture goal of parenting?

00:28:04.324 --> 00:28:06.504
The goal of parenting is
not to raise your kids.

00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:07.360
Okay.

00:28:07.560 --> 00:28:09.960
The goal of parenting is
to raise a future adult.

00:28:10.560 --> 00:28:13.290
So if I'm going to be the bad cop and
says, stop using your device, give me

00:28:13.290 --> 00:28:16.939
your phone, put away that iPad, what's
going to happen when she leaves the house,

00:28:16.969 --> 00:28:19.899
when she goes off to college or starts
a job, am I still going to be there?

00:28:20.169 --> 00:28:23.720
No, I need to teach her the skills
to self regulate her emotions.

00:28:24.139 --> 00:28:25.799
And so now she has this essential skill.

00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.640
And even today at 15 years old, she
still does this 45 minute timer.

00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:31.010
She doesn't do it with
a microwave anymore.

00:28:31.010 --> 00:28:33.379
She does it on her phone where
she sets a 45 minute timer.

00:28:33.670 --> 00:28:34.689
She watches YouTube.

00:28:34.689 --> 00:28:37.439
She does whatever she's going
to do online and then that's it.

00:28:37.900 --> 00:28:39.790
And so I taught her or she taught herself.

00:28:39.790 --> 00:28:40.250
I didn't teach her.

00:28:40.350 --> 00:28:43.910
I gave her the ability to teach
herself this very essential skill.

00:28:44.190 --> 00:28:47.900
So when you plan time, when you
make time for traction and you help

00:28:47.900 --> 00:28:52.459
your kids schedule the distractions,
you're turning the distraction into

00:28:52.459 --> 00:28:52.959
Adam Fishman: traction.

00:28:53.375 --> 00:28:54.565
That's really fascinating.

00:28:54.565 --> 00:28:58.645
And it's something that we've tried
with our kids and it's been pretty

00:28:58.645 --> 00:29:02.905
effective, which is we sit down and
we look at the calendar for the week

00:29:02.905 --> 00:29:07.554
and we say, okay, you're going to
have two chunks of TV time this week

00:29:07.554 --> 00:29:09.535
for 30 or 45 minutes or whatever.

00:29:09.545 --> 00:29:11.144
When would you like to schedule those?

00:29:11.155 --> 00:29:12.834
What days are you going to have those?

00:29:12.835 --> 00:29:16.395
And we don't get down to the precise,
you know, is it 7 PM or whatever,

00:29:16.435 --> 00:29:19.135
because our kids are a little bit
younger and it's worked pretty well.

00:29:19.254 --> 00:29:21.365
So this idea of making.

00:29:21.784 --> 00:29:25.395
The time and carving that out and
making it known and I like that you

00:29:25.395 --> 00:29:29.450
mentioned it keeps the kids from kind
of ruminating on it or getting You

00:29:29.450 --> 00:29:32.090
know, twitchy about it or something
that's, that's really fascinating.

00:29:32.090 --> 00:29:34.110
So that I have verifiable proof.

00:29:34.760 --> 00:29:35.260
Nir Eyal: That's awesome.

00:29:35.370 --> 00:29:35.550
Yeah.

00:29:35.550 --> 00:29:36.640
And you know, the step we skipped.

00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.110
So remember step number one
was master internal triggers.

00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:42.200
This relates if maybe I can talk
about that for just a minute because

00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:43.750
it's super relevant for kids.

00:29:44.149 --> 00:29:48.789
You know, the problem with technology
use and children is not use.

00:29:48.790 --> 00:29:49.324
It's.

00:29:49.525 --> 00:29:50.845
over use.

00:29:50.955 --> 00:29:54.175
Okay, again, no study has shown that
three hours or less of extracurricular

00:29:54.235 --> 00:29:57.245
age appropriate screen time has
any deleterious effects, right?

00:29:57.565 --> 00:29:59.055
Of course, it's got to be
age appropriate, right?

00:29:59.055 --> 00:30:01.634
There's certain things that I
wouldn't let a two year old do online.

00:30:01.634 --> 00:30:03.065
There's certain things I
wouldn't let a 15 year old do.

00:30:03.065 --> 00:30:06.505
So it has to be age appropriate, but
it's not so much about the time per se.

00:30:06.505 --> 00:30:08.135
It's about the over use.

00:30:08.145 --> 00:30:10.035
It's when kids are, you
know, six, seven hours a day.

00:30:10.035 --> 00:30:10.795
Now we got a problem.

00:30:11.315 --> 00:30:14.175
So what we want to do is to
ask ourselves, why are kids

00:30:14.195 --> 00:30:16.825
overusing and abusing technology.

00:30:16.825 --> 00:30:17.745
Where is that coming from?

00:30:18.195 --> 00:30:19.825
So this is a really important concept.

00:30:19.855 --> 00:30:23.245
This is super relevant because, you
know, again, we know that distraction

00:30:23.255 --> 00:30:24.875
is an emotion regulation problem.

00:30:25.245 --> 00:30:26.665
So what's bugging our kids?

00:30:26.715 --> 00:30:31.155
What is it that they're looking for online
that they would use technology so much?

00:30:31.370 --> 00:30:31.610
Okay.

00:30:32.140 --> 00:30:35.720
Well, this is where I refer to the work of
what's called self determination theory.

00:30:35.820 --> 00:30:39.880
Self determination theory is the
oldest, most widely established, most,

00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:44.109
the most widely validated theory of
human motivation and flourishing.

00:30:44.109 --> 00:30:47.340
And self determination theory says
that every human being on the face

00:30:47.340 --> 00:30:49.555
of the earth Children, adults.

00:30:49.905 --> 00:30:52.275
We have three psychological nutrients.

00:30:52.285 --> 00:30:54.625
So just like we have the
macronutrients of protein,

00:30:54.625 --> 00:30:56.455
carbohydrates and fat for our bodies.

00:30:56.455 --> 00:30:58.555
Those are the three
macronutrients for our body.

00:30:58.935 --> 00:31:02.084
There are three nutrients that
we need for our brain, for

00:31:02.085 --> 00:31:03.415
our psychological well being.

00:31:03.415 --> 00:31:07.805
And those three psychological nutrients
are autonomy, mastery, autonomy.

00:31:07.990 --> 00:31:08.640
And relatedness.

00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.500
Okay, we need these three
psychological nutrients.

00:31:11.510 --> 00:31:15.820
Now, if you look at what's happened
to kids lives over the past several

00:31:15.860 --> 00:31:22.250
decades, there is a severe deficiency
in those three psychological nutrients.

00:31:22.260 --> 00:31:24.260
So let's start with competency.

00:31:24.499 --> 00:31:27.670
Okay, competency is this
need competency mastery.

00:31:27.870 --> 00:31:28.910
This is this need.

00:31:29.205 --> 00:31:34.505
To feel like we know what we're doing, the
pleasure we get from feeling competent,

00:31:34.505 --> 00:31:37.375
feeling like we know what we're doing
well, what has happened over the past

00:31:37.375 --> 00:31:42.334
several years, especially since around
2008 2009 around the No Child Left

00:31:42.334 --> 00:31:46.895
Behind Act and many school districts now
that compensate teachers and educators

00:31:47.374 --> 00:31:49.004
based on Children's performance.

00:31:49.054 --> 00:31:54.274
What we've seen is a severe uptick
in standardized testing that

00:31:54.274 --> 00:31:56.014
Children are constantly tested.

00:31:56.455 --> 00:31:59.825
Many times, several times per year
with these standardized tests.

00:31:59.825 --> 00:32:01.815
Cause that's how we figure
out how much to pay teachers.

00:32:02.205 --> 00:32:04.994
Well, what does that do for a subset
of children for certain children

00:32:05.315 --> 00:32:09.085
that constantly reinforces you are
not competent, you are not enough.

00:32:09.905 --> 00:32:13.505
And so what happens when you don't
get your psychological nutrients met?

00:32:13.780 --> 00:32:15.400
Offline in the real world.

00:32:15.590 --> 00:32:16.040
What do you do?

00:32:16.060 --> 00:32:17.780
This is called the needs
displacement hypothesis.

00:32:18.040 --> 00:32:22.860
If you don't get your psychological needs
met offline, you look for them online.

00:32:23.610 --> 00:32:23.940
Yeah.

00:32:23.969 --> 00:32:25.120
So where do they go?

00:32:25.250 --> 00:32:27.569
Well, when you play an online game.

00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:29.560
You feel competent, right?

00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:33.200
When you get a lot of followers on
social media, you feel competent.

00:32:33.210 --> 00:32:34.500
You feel like you know what you're doing.

00:32:34.510 --> 00:32:35.710
That feels really good.

00:32:36.100 --> 00:32:38.870
But again, that need comes
from the fact that they're not

00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:40.860
getting that need met offline.

00:32:40.870 --> 00:32:43.420
So they're looking for it online autonomy.

00:32:43.470 --> 00:32:46.409
And this has to go back to what we're
talking about in terms of scheduling.

00:32:46.620 --> 00:32:46.880
Right?

00:32:47.660 --> 00:32:51.480
Part of the reason that your kids
are responding so well to scheduling

00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:54.560
out their screen time is that it's
giving them a sense of autonomy.

00:32:54.580 --> 00:32:56.680
They're being asked,
Hey, what's good for you?

00:32:56.689 --> 00:32:58.509
How would you like to schedule your day?

00:32:59.180 --> 00:33:03.749
We know that this generation of
American children is the most regulated

00:33:03.749 --> 00:33:05.630
and scheduled generation in history.

00:33:06.199 --> 00:33:08.569
If you think about it, there's
only two places in society.

00:33:08.735 --> 00:33:12.715
Where you can tell people where to
go, what to think, how to dress, who

00:33:12.715 --> 00:33:16.855
to be friends with, what to eat, and
those two places are school and prison.

00:33:18.124 --> 00:33:23.165
We know that the average child today
has 10 times as many restrictions as

00:33:23.165 --> 00:33:27.284
an adult, twice as many restrictions
placed on them as an incarcerated felon.

00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:32.970
So it's no surprise when we constantly
tell people, when we tell kids what to

00:33:32.970 --> 00:33:37.210
do all day long, they want autonomy, they
want freedom, they want to be left alone.

00:33:37.239 --> 00:33:38.320
Let me do what I want to do.

00:33:38.550 --> 00:33:39.890
In our generation, what do we do?

00:33:40.159 --> 00:33:40.939
We hung out.

00:33:41.270 --> 00:33:44.679
We went and hung out at the 7 Eleven
or around the neighborhood and nobody,

00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.710
we weren't tethered to our devices and
constantly being pinged and dinged from

00:33:47.710 --> 00:33:51.060
our parents, asking where we were all
the time and monitored and tracked.

00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:52.750
We had freedom, we had autonomy.

00:33:53.320 --> 00:33:56.380
So what happens today when
kids are so regulated?

00:33:56.670 --> 00:34:00.180
And so constantly monitored by
adults and coaches and teachers.

00:34:00.530 --> 00:34:04.450
Well, what do they do when they don't get
that need for autonomy in the real world?

00:34:04.810 --> 00:34:06.279
They look for it in the virtual world.

00:34:06.670 --> 00:34:07.010
Right.

00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:10.840
When I go play Minecraft or
World of Warcraft or whatever

00:34:10.850 --> 00:34:14.510
game Fortnite, whatever I'm
playing, I feel I have autonomy.

00:34:14.510 --> 00:34:16.050
I have freedom, right?

00:34:16.209 --> 00:34:18.980
That's what I'm looking for online
if I'm not getting that psychological

00:34:18.980 --> 00:34:20.659
nutrient met in the real world.

00:34:21.020 --> 00:34:24.019
And finally, relatedness, the
third psychological nutrient.

00:34:24.580 --> 00:34:30.380
We know that this generation of
kids has less time for play than

00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:32.050
any generation in American history.

00:34:32.665 --> 00:34:37.595
Play is an essential act for
developing these psychological

00:34:37.595 --> 00:34:40.425
nutrients of competency, autonomy,
and relatedness, specifically

00:34:40.425 --> 00:34:44.145
relatedness, because in play, play is
where we learn our place in the world.

00:34:44.694 --> 00:34:48.305
It's one thing if your parent or
teacher or coach tells you what to do.

00:34:48.834 --> 00:34:52.315
It's a whole nother thing if one of
your peers says, Hey, if you act that

00:34:52.315 --> 00:34:53.155
way, I don't want to play with you.

00:34:53.250 --> 00:34:56.340
That is where we learn
our place in the world.

00:34:56.430 --> 00:35:01.250
And it's only through free play that we
develop healthy psychological wellbeing,

00:35:01.620 --> 00:35:05.780
but it's the first thing that gets
compromised right between the test prep

00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:09.289
and the swimming lessons and the ballet
and all the hyper scheduling that we

00:35:09.289 --> 00:35:13.540
put kids through, we leave no time for
the most beneficial thing we can do for

00:35:13.540 --> 00:35:18.190
their psychological wellbeing, which
is to let them play with other kids.

00:35:18.220 --> 00:35:20.890
And what's surprising is as
much as parents say, Oh, my kid

00:35:20.900 --> 00:35:22.000
won't stop using their device.

00:35:22.490 --> 00:35:23.020
It's amazing.

00:35:23.110 --> 00:35:24.230
I've seen this with my daughter.

00:35:24.230 --> 00:35:26.170
I've seen this with other
people's kids when they have the

00:35:26.170 --> 00:35:28.140
opportunity to play with other kids.

00:35:28.795 --> 00:35:31.745
No game or social media
stands a chance, right?

00:35:31.745 --> 00:35:35.075
When we give them opportunity to do
something with their peers, as opposed

00:35:35.075 --> 00:35:37.055
to you're going to sit at home, right?

00:35:37.055 --> 00:35:39.485
By yourself because of stranger
danger or some other myth.

00:35:39.495 --> 00:35:40.664
The media has fed us.

00:35:41.145 --> 00:35:42.024
Well, what do you expect them to do?

00:35:42.025 --> 00:35:42.975
Of course, they're going to go online.

00:35:43.584 --> 00:35:46.004
So we've got to give them these
three psychological nutrients of

00:35:46.005 --> 00:35:47.484
competency, autonomy, and relatedness.

00:35:47.514 --> 00:35:49.375
This is the source of
those internal triggers.

00:35:49.375 --> 00:35:52.655
Remember, we talked about how distraction
is a desire to escape discomfort.

00:35:52.835 --> 00:35:55.205
Well, that's where the emotional
discomfort is coming from.

00:35:55.215 --> 00:35:58.535
They are severely lacking in these
three psychological nutrients.

00:35:58.775 --> 00:36:00.705
Adam Fishman: Fascinating study on that.

00:36:01.325 --> 00:36:05.545
So I wanted to pivot a little
bit in the waning time that we

00:36:05.545 --> 00:36:08.015
have and ask you a couple things.

00:36:08.115 --> 00:36:13.604
One is, you know, you published
Hooked, I think a little over

00:36:13.605 --> 00:36:16.545
10 years ago, 2013 or so.

00:36:16.964 --> 00:36:22.565
And that book is sort of the
Bible for people who do what I do

00:36:22.565 --> 00:36:28.295
professionally, product builders, growth
practitioners, especially because of

00:36:28.835 --> 00:36:33.445
You know, the fixation and obsession
around retention and habit formation.

00:36:33.915 --> 00:36:38.395
And, you know, in some cases, companies
have taken this to the extreme.

00:36:39.115 --> 00:36:40.935
And most parents are pretty familiar.

00:36:40.935 --> 00:36:44.714
You mentioned, Hey, you think
social media is probably kids aren't

00:36:44.714 --> 00:36:46.445
ready for that until they're 16.

00:36:47.004 --> 00:36:52.345
I have heard you mention in other
places that you do believe that we

00:36:52.345 --> 00:36:57.285
need some special protections for kids
below a certain age, especially when

00:36:57.285 --> 00:36:58.705
it comes to habit forming products.

00:36:59.230 --> 00:37:03.010
What are some of your thoughts
around the kind of protections or

00:37:03.020 --> 00:37:08.860
age restrictions that are important
until kids are able to handle some

00:37:08.860 --> 00:37:13.059
of the responsibility and build their
own sort of indistractable traits?

00:37:13.445 --> 00:37:13.635
So

00:37:13.635 --> 00:37:16.175
Nir Eyal: first of all, so, so when
it comes to building habit forming

00:37:16.175 --> 00:37:19.515
products, the idea is that we want
to use this psychology for good.

00:37:19.955 --> 00:37:24.535
So the problem is almost exclusively, I
can't think of any other examples, it's

00:37:24.575 --> 00:37:26.675
only media that's the problem, right?

00:37:27.075 --> 00:37:30.514
Nobody's complaining about FitBod,
an app that helps you get into

00:37:30.515 --> 00:37:31.994
the habit of exercising, right?

00:37:32.404 --> 00:37:33.194
Which I have used.

00:37:33.714 --> 00:37:35.729
Yeah, okay, it's a case study in the book.

00:37:36.040 --> 00:37:36.500
Awesome.

00:37:36.520 --> 00:37:37.750
So they use the hook model.

00:37:37.750 --> 00:37:40.870
They it's a case study in the book
of how they use the hook model to get

00:37:40.870 --> 00:37:42.290
people into the habit of exercising.

00:37:42.670 --> 00:37:42.920
Right.

00:37:42.930 --> 00:37:46.150
Nobody's complaining that a language
learning app like Duolingo that they're

00:37:46.150 --> 00:37:47.300
spending too much time on it, right?

00:37:47.300 --> 00:37:50.769
We want good habits to help us through
technology and it's wonderful, right?

00:37:50.770 --> 00:37:53.109
Technology has done so much
to help us build good habits.

00:37:53.855 --> 00:37:57.475
The media companies are the ones
that create bad habits, right?

00:37:57.495 --> 00:37:58.645
And so what are these bad habits?

00:37:58.645 --> 00:37:59.705
They're around distraction.

00:37:59.965 --> 00:38:02.924
So whether it's new media
or old media, right?

00:38:02.925 --> 00:38:06.225
If your kid is, you know, reading is
wonderful habit, but if you're reading

00:38:06.235 --> 00:38:08.905
Harry Potter for six hours a day,
that's too much Harry Potter, right?

00:38:09.594 --> 00:38:12.715
That can also be too much because
again, the cost is what else you

00:38:12.715 --> 00:38:13.595
could be doing with your time.

00:38:13.825 --> 00:38:17.645
So whether it's too much news, whether
it's too much social media, whether

00:38:17.645 --> 00:38:21.430
it's too much books, any form of media,
that's too much, It can be a problem

00:38:21.430 --> 00:38:23.200
because of what it's distracting you from.

00:38:23.530 --> 00:38:25.450
So just to put it in perspective,
what type of products are

00:38:25.450 --> 00:38:26.570
we really talking about?

00:38:26.900 --> 00:38:29.800
Now, when it comes to
restrictions, I think there's a

00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:31.649
few layers that we can look at.

00:38:31.659 --> 00:38:34.210
We've got the legislative layer.

00:38:34.520 --> 00:38:36.799
And I think that, you know,
13 is probably too young.

00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:39.810
I think anybody who lets their kids
use social media before 13 is crazy.

00:38:40.230 --> 00:38:41.160
That's a bad idea.

00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:43.770
Even the companies tell you,
don't let your kid use this

00:38:43.770 --> 00:38:44.790
product under 13 years old.

00:38:44.790 --> 00:38:47.660
Why the heck would you, you know, go
against what the company is telling you

00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:48.999
when they say don't use our product?

00:38:49.410 --> 00:38:50.150
Under 13.

00:38:50.465 --> 00:38:53.685
I don't know what you're doing,
but I think between 13 to 16, I

00:38:53.695 --> 00:38:55.205
think middle school is hard enough.

00:38:55.255 --> 00:38:56.315
Early high school is hard enough.

00:38:56.335 --> 00:39:00.644
I think 16 plus minimum age,
but it also depends what kind of

00:39:00.645 --> 00:39:03.535
screen time, you know, screen time
is not really a useful metric.

00:39:03.785 --> 00:39:06.954
You know, if my kid is talking
to their grandma and grandpa, you

00:39:06.954 --> 00:39:09.955
know, over FaceTime, that's screen
time, but that's super healthy.

00:39:09.955 --> 00:39:10.595
That's wonderful.

00:39:10.595 --> 00:39:11.025
I love it.

00:39:11.115 --> 00:39:13.095
If my daughter is learning
how to play the guitar, I'd

00:39:13.095 --> 00:39:14.195
never paid for a guitar lesson.

00:39:14.195 --> 00:39:16.285
She completely taught herself how
to play the guitar with YouTube.

00:39:16.895 --> 00:39:17.725
Wonderful, right?

00:39:17.725 --> 00:39:18.955
There's nothing bad about that.

00:39:19.235 --> 00:39:21.165
If she's communicating with
her friends on WhatsApp.

00:39:21.245 --> 00:39:22.605
Yeah, that's social media.

00:39:22.615 --> 00:39:24.915
But you know, is that so
different from a phone call?

00:39:24.915 --> 00:39:26.495
Not really, just much more convenient.

00:39:26.904 --> 00:39:30.035
I think it's the social media where
you get into trickier territory is, you

00:39:30.035 --> 00:39:33.684
know, I think TikTok can be a huge waste
of time if it's not carefully used.

00:39:33.725 --> 00:39:36.224
But again, it's not so
much the technology itself.

00:39:36.254 --> 00:39:37.494
It's what it's displacing.

00:39:37.684 --> 00:39:40.834
The worst thing it's displacing is sleep.

00:39:41.290 --> 00:39:44.900
And I think a good chunk of the
rise in teen mental health issues

00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:48.210
is not just simply saying, Oh,
it's what they're seeing online.

00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:51.240
It's what is happening to their brains
when they don't get enough sleep.

00:39:51.900 --> 00:39:54.909
We know sleep is absolutely essential
for cognitive development and

00:39:54.910 --> 00:39:57.089
performance, especially in kids.

00:39:57.470 --> 00:40:01.149
So I think not just social media,
not just the screen time, anything.

00:40:01.445 --> 00:40:05.585
Anything that beeps, buzzes, or boops does
not have a place in a child's bedroom.

00:40:05.745 --> 00:40:07.645
I don't think it has a place
in an adult's bedroom either.

00:40:07.715 --> 00:40:08.975
Like, we got rid of our television.

00:40:09.005 --> 00:40:10.455
We don't have a television in our bedroom.

00:40:10.634 --> 00:40:12.085
We don't sleep next to our phones.

00:40:12.105 --> 00:40:13.045
There's no radio.

00:40:13.045 --> 00:40:15.735
There's nothing that beeps,
buzzes, or boops in the bedroom

00:40:15.935 --> 00:40:17.075
other than an alarm clock.

00:40:17.185 --> 00:40:17.564
That's it.

00:40:18.054 --> 00:40:21.200
So, anything that emits
light, pets, Right?

00:40:21.220 --> 00:40:24.420
Like if they wake your kid up at
night, I'm sorry, Rover, you're going

00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:28.200
to have to sleep outside because
your kid's sleep is more important.

00:40:28.200 --> 00:40:31.270
So that's actually, I think a big
cause of the problem is that kids are

00:40:31.319 --> 00:40:34.809
up late on their devices when they
really should be getting sleep, but

00:40:34.809 --> 00:40:35.919
we can do something about that, right?

00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.579
We, as parents can say, okay, like
in my household, all the devices

00:40:39.600 --> 00:40:41.309
are charged outside the bedroom.

00:40:41.780 --> 00:40:42.000
Right.

00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:44.940
We have a special place in our living room
where everybody connects their devices.

00:40:44.950 --> 00:40:45.530
Me too.

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:49.900
And that's where those devices
sleep at night, not next to us.

00:40:50.250 --> 00:40:54.540
So I think that that's, you know, figuring
out how we can, again, this basic theme

00:40:54.540 --> 00:40:57.070
of how do we get the best of these devices
without letting them get the best of us.

00:40:57.320 --> 00:40:58.470
We are not victims here.

00:40:58.620 --> 00:41:02.250
There's so much we can do without waiting
for the government to regulate it for us.

00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:05.470
So per your question, you know, there's
some things probably legislatively.

00:41:05.470 --> 00:41:07.930
Yeah, maybe we take social
media use from 13 to 16.

00:41:08.129 --> 00:41:10.269
I don't think that that's
probably not a bad idea.

00:41:10.540 --> 00:41:13.340
But most of the burden is
going to be on us parents.

00:41:13.450 --> 00:41:17.995
Because remember, distraction
Is not a new phenomenon, right?

00:41:17.995 --> 00:41:23.065
Plato, the Greek philosopher, 2, 500 years
ago, 2, 500 years before the internet,

00:41:23.425 --> 00:41:25.615
Plato was complaining about distraction.

00:41:26.055 --> 00:41:29.125
He called it a tendency to do
things against our better interest.

00:41:29.454 --> 00:41:32.295
So if people have been complaining about
distraction for 2, 500 years, it's not

00:41:32.295 --> 00:41:33.554
the internet that caused this problem.

00:41:33.625 --> 00:41:36.935
But in our generation, there's
always been a moral panic.

00:41:36.945 --> 00:41:39.035
When I was a kid, it
was television, right?

00:41:39.035 --> 00:41:40.715
They called us all couch potatoes.

00:41:40.985 --> 00:41:42.434
And before that it was heavy metal.

00:41:42.434 --> 00:41:44.114
And before that it was
dungeons and dragons.

00:41:44.115 --> 00:41:47.065
And before that it was rap
music and the radio all the

00:41:47.065 --> 00:41:48.365
way back to the written word.

00:41:48.365 --> 00:41:51.634
Socrates said that this new
technology of the written word

00:41:51.875 --> 00:41:53.795
was going to enfeeble men's minds.

00:41:54.225 --> 00:41:57.615
So we as parents need to take a step back
and realize that this is part of a very

00:41:57.615 --> 00:42:00.135
long and misguided historical tradition.

00:42:00.310 --> 00:42:02.670
Of what's called a moral panic, right?

00:42:02.670 --> 00:42:07.230
Where we freak out about whatever new
technology didn't exist when we were

00:42:07.230 --> 00:42:11.489
kids, and we blame all of our kids
problems on that technology because

00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:14.290
it absolves us of any responsibility.

00:42:14.670 --> 00:42:16.030
You see Johnny's acting crazy.

00:42:16.030 --> 00:42:17.599
Not because of anything I did.

00:42:17.610 --> 00:42:18.270
No, no, no.

00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.920
It must be because technology
is melting his brain.

00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:22.770
Well, that's what our parents said about.

00:42:23.040 --> 00:42:26.680
The technology de jure when we were
kids, and when Johnny grows up and

00:42:26.680 --> 00:42:29.900
has his own kids, hopefully they'll
complain about something else and say,

00:42:29.900 --> 00:42:32.460
Oh, remember the good old days when all
we had to worry about was social media.

00:42:33.720 --> 00:42:35.120
I promise you that's
what's going to happen.

00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:40.130
So one, put this in perspective to
take responsibility where we can.

00:42:40.330 --> 00:42:40.620
Right.

00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:42.720
And so there's so much
that we as parents can do.

00:42:42.990 --> 00:42:47.260
The worst thing you can do is to
say, well, There's nothing I can do.

00:42:47.370 --> 00:42:49.080
Technology is addicting us, right?

00:42:49.080 --> 00:42:50.140
It's hijacking our brains.

00:42:50.140 --> 00:42:52.910
Because when you have that
mentality, it leads to what's

00:42:52.910 --> 00:42:54.390
called learned helplessness.

00:42:54.850 --> 00:42:57.990
And when people feel there's
nothing to be done, what do they do?

00:42:58.450 --> 00:42:58.950
Nothing.

00:42:58.950 --> 00:43:01.009
And so that's the worst
of all possible worlds.

00:43:01.009 --> 00:43:01.238
Exactly.

00:43:01.238 --> 00:43:01.924
They give up.

00:43:02.805 --> 00:43:05.345
Adam Fishman: Yeah, that concept of
learned helplessness is one that,

00:43:05.365 --> 00:43:08.555
you know, is talked a lot about
in parenting circles and really

00:43:08.955 --> 00:43:14.085
sort of the opposite of building
resilient and growth oriented kids.

00:43:14.095 --> 00:43:15.175
So I think that's really good.

00:43:15.285 --> 00:43:16.224
That's a really good topic.

00:43:16.694 --> 00:43:21.645
I did have a listener question that I
wanted to pose to you, which I asked the

00:43:21.645 --> 00:43:25.214
audience of folks who listened to this and
they're obviously big fans of your work.

00:43:25.234 --> 00:43:27.815
And somebody raised something
really interesting, which I

00:43:27.815 --> 00:43:29.235
wanted to get your perspective on.

00:43:29.275 --> 00:43:29.924
And that is.

00:43:30.335 --> 00:43:34.645
In Hooked, and I'm super familiar with
the book too, you talk about this idea

00:43:34.645 --> 00:43:40.195
of a building habit as a trigger, an
action, a variable reward, an investment.

00:43:40.885 --> 00:43:43.095
And that's the kind of the habit cycle.

00:43:43.525 --> 00:43:46.465
And I think rewards are a
really interesting topic

00:43:46.485 --> 00:43:47.754
that parents wrestle with.

00:43:48.234 --> 00:43:54.705
And so someone asked, how do you think
about rewards as a parent, especially

00:43:54.705 --> 00:43:58.900
in a world where Maybe you're concerned
that they might hamper intrinsic

00:43:58.900 --> 00:44:01.540
motivation or something like that.

00:44:01.540 --> 00:44:05.829
So how would you recommend, or how
have you thought about navigating?

00:44:06.265 --> 00:44:08.485
This idea of the reward.

00:44:08.845 --> 00:44:13.145
It's not sort of the destination that
you want with your kids, I guess.

00:44:14.315 --> 00:44:17.025
Nir Eyal: So I think you're asking about
the difference between an extrinsic

00:44:17.215 --> 00:44:19.205
motivation and an intrinsic motivation.

00:44:19.244 --> 00:44:19.604
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

00:44:19.605 --> 00:44:24.155
And sometimes I think people
equate reward with dampening.

00:44:24.624 --> 00:44:29.885
Basically it is an extrinsic motivation
and it can dampen intrinsic motivation.

00:44:29.885 --> 00:44:33.335
Now, I don't know if I agree or disagree
with that, but I was curious to hear.

00:44:33.695 --> 00:44:37.675
Your perspective, because it kind of
came up a lot from people who think about

00:44:37.675 --> 00:44:39.165
this in terms of raising their kids.

00:44:39.455 --> 00:44:40.125
Nir Eyal: Yeah, sure.

00:44:40.185 --> 00:44:45.475
So the answer is the same for any complex
topic, which the answer is it depends.

00:44:46.355 --> 00:44:49.695
So there used to be this kind of
debate of extrinsic motivation, good,

00:44:49.705 --> 00:44:51.394
bad, intrinsic motivation, good, bad.

00:44:51.734 --> 00:44:53.684
And the answer is they're both tools.

00:44:53.755 --> 00:44:55.335
They're both tools to use on ourselves.

00:44:55.335 --> 00:44:57.845
They're both tools when we're
designing experiences for other people.

00:44:57.965 --> 00:45:00.305
They're both tools we can
use in raising future adults.

00:45:00.525 --> 00:45:04.864
And so just like you can bash in a
screw with a hammer, it's much more

00:45:04.864 --> 00:45:06.325
effective if you use a screwdriver.

00:45:06.375 --> 00:45:08.054
So it's about using the
right tool for the job.

00:45:08.404 --> 00:45:12.995
And so extrinsic rewards are things where
the reward is not directly related to

00:45:13.005 --> 00:45:15.925
the task, meaning a participation trophy.

00:45:16.340 --> 00:45:16.720
Okay.

00:45:17.490 --> 00:45:20.230
Or even actually any kind of award,
any kind of, you know, you get the

00:45:20.230 --> 00:45:24.900
gold medal, it's not the doing the task
itself that gets you the gold medal.

00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:27.600
The gold medal is what
happens after the task.

00:45:27.900 --> 00:45:31.800
So participation trophies and
ribbons, those are extrinsic rewards.

00:45:31.830 --> 00:45:34.970
I mean, you know, getting paid for
something is an extrinsic motivator.

00:45:35.930 --> 00:45:40.100
The problem with extrinsic motivators is
that they tend to decrease creativity.

00:45:40.500 --> 00:45:44.020
When you are working
solely for the result.

00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:48.390
Rather than the process itself,
people tend to find the path

00:45:48.390 --> 00:45:49.580
of least resistance, right?

00:45:49.580 --> 00:45:50.980
The brain is a cognitive miser.

00:45:51.010 --> 00:45:53.850
So we're always looking for the
easiest way to get what we want.

00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:55.850
That's when we have an extrinsic reward.

00:45:56.090 --> 00:45:57.129
Now that sounds bad.

00:45:57.130 --> 00:45:59.910
It sounds like, well, why would we
ever want to use extrinsic rewards?

00:46:00.140 --> 00:46:04.590
Turns out extrinsic rewards are
very effective for short term tasks.

00:46:04.865 --> 00:46:09.045
Okay, so if it's, Hey, I got to finish my
taxes, I don't really want to do it, but

00:46:09.045 --> 00:46:10.295
it's something I got to do once a year.

00:46:10.545 --> 00:46:13.805
And when I finish these taxes, I'm
going to go out with my spouse for

00:46:13.805 --> 00:46:15.375
a wonderful dinner as my reward.

00:46:15.375 --> 00:46:18.024
I'm not going to let us go until we
do that and we get our tax return.

00:46:18.025 --> 00:46:19.705
Okay, we can spend the tax
return on a nice dinner.

00:46:19.965 --> 00:46:25.029
That's an extrinsic reward, but can
help you motivate for a short term task.

00:46:25.700 --> 00:46:29.790
Extrinsic rewards are not so great when
it comes to long term tasks, when it

00:46:29.790 --> 00:46:31.550
comes to tasks that require creativity.

00:46:31.550 --> 00:46:33.940
That's where intrinsic
motivation is more effective.

00:46:33.950 --> 00:46:38.850
Intrinsic motivation is when
the task itself is the reward.

00:46:39.200 --> 00:46:43.640
So, you paint because you love
the act of painting, not because

00:46:43.640 --> 00:46:45.250
you care if anyone buys your art.

00:46:45.740 --> 00:46:47.460
You write because it's so fun.

00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:50.660
Like you find yourself giggling
when you're writing because the act

00:46:50.660 --> 00:46:54.010
itself is pleasurable versus, Oh,
is anybody going to buy my book?

00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:58.080
You love to exercise because you love the
way your body feels when you're running.

00:46:58.240 --> 00:46:59.670
Not, am I going to win the race?

00:46:59.850 --> 00:47:03.790
Those are intrinsic rather than extrinsic
motivators, and that's much more

00:47:03.790 --> 00:47:06.600
effective for long term behavior change.

00:47:06.910 --> 00:47:10.000
And so it's just a matter of figuring
out what type of behavior you're

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:13.140
facing for yourself, for your kids
to use the right tool for the job.

00:47:13.625 --> 00:47:13.855
That's

00:47:13.855 --> 00:47:14.475
Adam Fishman: fascinating.

00:47:14.685 --> 00:47:18.015
I heard a story once about someone
who was potty training their kid and

00:47:18.015 --> 00:47:22.405
every time, you know, they went to the
bathroom, they would give them a piece

00:47:22.405 --> 00:47:24.125
of chocolate or something like that.

00:47:24.425 --> 00:47:27.995
Their kid ended up just deciding like,
oh, I know how to get the chocolate.

00:47:28.184 --> 00:47:29.555
If I just sit here.

00:47:30.040 --> 00:47:33.640
All day, eventually I'll have to go
to the bathroom and I'll get this

00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:37.380
piece of chocolate and so they sort
of like inverted the economics of what

00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:40.390
they were trying to achieve, but to
your point of you're going to take

00:47:40.390 --> 00:47:42.259
the path of least resistance, right?

00:47:42.460 --> 00:47:45.739
The path of least resistance was the kid
was like, well, I'll just never leave the

00:47:45.739 --> 00:47:48.110
bathroom and then, you know, I'll get my

00:47:48.110 --> 00:47:48.574
Nir Eyal: chocolate.

00:47:48.725 --> 00:47:51.996
So it does, this is actually how we
potty trained our daughter . But,

00:47:52.265 --> 00:47:53.645
but we, we had a restriction.

00:47:53.945 --> 00:47:56.435
We said, today, only
today's a special day.

00:47:56.440 --> 00:47:58.595
Today's the day today's a yes.

00:47:58.775 --> 00:48:01.025
So it was an extrinsic
motivator to teach her.

00:48:01.025 --> 00:48:04.685
But then the intrinsic motivator became
what, what was the intrinsic motivator to

00:48:04.690 --> 00:48:06.605
keep going on the potty versus her diaper?

00:48:06.905 --> 00:48:08.200
Was it felt better, right?

00:48:08.285 --> 00:48:08.455
Right.

00:48:08.455 --> 00:48:08.545
Sure.

00:48:08.725 --> 00:48:11.125
The behavior itself, it feels a lot
better to not have a wet diaper.

00:48:11.275 --> 00:48:12.325
Uh, okay, now I get it.

00:48:12.355 --> 00:48:13.915
Now that becomes its own reward.

00:48:14.150 --> 00:48:14.440
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

00:48:14.490 --> 00:48:18.040
So setting this idea that it is,
Hey, this is temporary one day only,

00:48:18.050 --> 00:48:19.570
you know, this is a special moment.

00:48:20.050 --> 00:48:20.530
Okay.

00:48:20.830 --> 00:48:24.369
Well, I want to wrap and ask you
just a couple of more questions.

00:48:24.369 --> 00:48:27.489
Just a few things about you as a
dad, because I'm sure people are

00:48:27.490 --> 00:48:31.040
curious about this, but this has been
a fascinating topical discussion.

00:48:31.289 --> 00:48:32.520
So I really appreciate it.

00:48:32.830 --> 00:48:36.450
I wanted to ask you, this is something
I ask everybody on the show, but

00:48:36.450 --> 00:48:40.235
you If you think back to, you know,
your journey through fatherhood,

00:48:40.535 --> 00:48:44.355
what is one of the most surprising
things that you've discovered as a

00:48:44.355 --> 00:48:44.695
Nir Eyal: dad?

00:48:45.194 --> 00:48:49.515
So I'll tell you the, the last surprising
thing that's kind of blown my mind, and

00:48:49.515 --> 00:48:52.115
maybe this won't resonate with anybody
else, but it certainly has for me.

00:48:52.555 --> 00:48:53.704
So my daughter's 15.

00:48:54.545 --> 00:48:57.685
And everybody kept warning
me about teenage girls.

00:48:57.905 --> 00:49:00.295
That, oh teenage girls
are so hard to deal with.

00:49:00.305 --> 00:49:01.055
They're so moody.

00:49:01.055 --> 00:49:01.605
They're so this.

00:49:01.615 --> 00:49:04.945
They had all these
perceptions of teenage girls.

00:49:05.045 --> 00:49:06.434
Like, almost like, oh I'm so sorry.

00:49:06.434 --> 00:49:08.655
You know, you're gonna have it easy when
they're young, but then you're gonna have

00:49:08.655 --> 00:49:10.115
it super difficult when they're older.

00:49:10.695 --> 00:49:12.425
And I haven't felt that at all.

00:49:12.574 --> 00:49:13.805
And I kept expecting it.

00:49:14.125 --> 00:49:17.295
But I'll tell you, you know, over
the past few years, I've gone from

00:49:17.295 --> 00:49:19.305
not only loving my daughter, right?

00:49:19.305 --> 00:49:20.165
You always love your kid.

00:49:20.165 --> 00:49:21.735
As soon as your kid's born, you love them.

00:49:21.995 --> 00:49:23.875
But now I actually like my daughter.

00:49:23.875 --> 00:49:26.025
Like I like the person she's become.

00:49:26.055 --> 00:49:27.185
I want to hang out with her.

00:49:27.185 --> 00:49:28.644
We do all kinds of fun things together.

00:49:29.145 --> 00:49:33.415
And I was expected there
to be this drifting apart.

00:49:33.554 --> 00:49:37.965
And there, there has been times when
that's happened, but more so than not,

00:49:38.055 --> 00:49:39.915
we've gotten closer and closer and closer.

00:49:40.275 --> 00:49:43.145
And so that never happened that
like teenage rebelliousness.

00:49:43.145 --> 00:49:44.905
And so it turns out.

00:49:45.350 --> 00:49:49.820
That this is a myth that it's something
that we only see in the industrialized

00:49:49.850 --> 00:49:54.770
world, that this idea of a rebellious
teenager, that whole idea of a

00:49:54.770 --> 00:49:57.320
rebellious, like everybody thinks,
oh, teenagers are always rebellious.

00:49:57.320 --> 00:50:00.830
No, that's actually something that only
happens in the industrialized world where

00:50:00.830 --> 00:50:03.659
we have institutionalized education.

00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:07.940
So in countries that pre industrialized
where teenagers are part of the

00:50:07.940 --> 00:50:10.810
family unit all day long, they
don't go to institutionalized

00:50:10.810 --> 00:50:12.170
education, they don't rebel.

00:50:12.745 --> 00:50:13.145
Right.

00:50:13.445 --> 00:50:17.815
It's only when we send kids to
school and tell them what to do all

00:50:17.815 --> 00:50:19.695
day that they become rebellious.

00:50:19.935 --> 00:50:23.535
And so I think something that's kind
of dawned on me lately is that, you

00:50:23.535 --> 00:50:25.485
know, school is also a technology.

00:50:26.525 --> 00:50:27.495
School is a technology.

00:50:27.755 --> 00:50:27.954
Okay.

00:50:27.954 --> 00:50:28.744
It's not that old.

00:50:28.744 --> 00:50:29.865
It's like 150 years old.

00:50:29.874 --> 00:50:33.915
Institutionalized education is a
technology just like our cell phones

00:50:33.915 --> 00:50:35.695
and social media are technologies.

00:50:35.945 --> 00:50:37.455
This is also a technology.

00:50:37.970 --> 00:50:41.000
And it has a lot of good
and it also has some quirks.

00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:42.180
It also has some downsides.

00:50:42.660 --> 00:50:45.370
And so understanding that these
preconceived notions, you know, just

00:50:45.370 --> 00:50:50.090
because that's the way things have
been in our lifetime, doesn't mean

00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:51.889
that's the way they've always been.

00:50:52.050 --> 00:50:55.280
In fact, that's not at all the case
that if you look at the history of

00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:58.340
education, for the most part, you
know, very few people could afford

00:50:58.340 --> 00:50:59.870
education and those who could.

00:51:00.005 --> 00:51:00.685
Had tutors.

00:51:00.705 --> 00:51:02.035
They had some very small group too.

00:51:02.035 --> 00:51:04.655
They didn't have a classroom with
45 kids listening to some boring

00:51:04.655 --> 00:51:05.715
lecture in front of the room.

00:51:05.715 --> 00:51:08.175
That's a very new technology
and has a lot of downsides.

00:51:08.695 --> 00:51:11.874
So I think what I've realized over the
past few years is that I think society

00:51:11.874 --> 00:51:15.984
kind of infantilizes teenagers that
we think that they're like big kids.

00:51:16.230 --> 00:51:19.200
And that they've got these broken brains
that have hormones raging around them.

00:51:19.650 --> 00:51:21.560
And I think I've realized that
that's a societal construct.

00:51:21.590 --> 00:51:23.070
It's what we expect of our kids.

00:51:23.120 --> 00:51:26.170
And of course, that's what they do
because that's what's expected of them.

00:51:26.590 --> 00:51:28.560
And so I've really tried
to rebel against that.

00:51:28.560 --> 00:51:31.310
And I think, you know, reaping the
rewards, I think, of having this

00:51:31.310 --> 00:51:34.039
really close relationship with my
daughter, where now she's just a

00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:35.610
cool person I like to hang out with.

00:51:35.890 --> 00:51:38.450
And that's been so
satisfying and so enriching.

00:51:38.450 --> 00:51:41.040
And I really hope other people
might be able to experience

00:51:41.040 --> 00:51:41.870
that as well with their kids.

00:51:42.640 --> 00:51:43.160
Awesome.

00:51:43.710 --> 00:51:45.810
Adam Fishman: I wanted to ask
you something specifically

00:51:45.810 --> 00:51:48.360
about making time for traction.

00:51:48.570 --> 00:51:52.290
What's something that you and your
daughter like to do together when you

00:51:52.290 --> 00:51:56.789
think about scheduling time or kind
of making time for a shared activity?

00:51:56.789 --> 00:51:57.760
What's like one of your favorite

00:51:57.760 --> 00:51:58.239
Nir Eyal: things to do?

00:51:58.675 --> 00:52:01.885
We do what's called planned
spontaneity and planned spontaneity.

00:52:02.115 --> 00:52:05.235
It sounds like an oxymoron, but
it's part of this whole philosophy

00:52:05.275 --> 00:52:08.565
of making time for traction,
turning your values into time.

00:52:09.104 --> 00:52:11.625
And so one of my values is
to be an available father.

00:52:11.724 --> 00:52:16.234
And so the way I do that is we have
time in our schedule, but locked out.

00:52:16.630 --> 00:52:19.640
Where we don't exactly know what we're
going to do, but I plan that time.

00:52:19.640 --> 00:52:21.140
So I know what I will not be doing.

00:52:21.310 --> 00:52:22.460
I will not be on my phone.

00:52:22.460 --> 00:52:23.820
I will not be taking business calls.

00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:25.260
I will not be on social media.

00:52:25.290 --> 00:52:26.740
I will be with someone I love very much.

00:52:27.139 --> 00:52:30.529
Now, if you're really curious, what
we've been doing lately is they

00:52:30.530 --> 00:52:32.420
opened up just a couple of months ago.

00:52:32.420 --> 00:52:34.420
They opened up an infinite wave pool.

00:52:34.730 --> 00:52:35.320
It's like a surf.

00:52:35.980 --> 00:52:37.640
Wave that you can just hop on.

00:52:37.640 --> 00:52:38.740
It's constantly running.

00:52:39.010 --> 00:52:41.670
And so that's what we've really
gotten into lately is we love surfing.

00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:44.410
Adam Fishman: That's a lot of
fun and I'm terrible at it.

00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:45.229
So hopefully you're

00:52:45.229 --> 00:52:45.539
Nir Eyal: better.

00:52:45.649 --> 00:52:46.439
I was terrible.

00:52:46.439 --> 00:52:48.060
Now I'm getting like less terrible.

00:52:48.069 --> 00:52:50.569
Cause I practice with her, but
she's, you know, of course she's 15.

00:52:50.569 --> 00:52:51.519
So she gets it like that.

00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:52.299
She puts me to shame.

00:52:52.420 --> 00:52:54.610
She's doing three, six crazy stuff.

00:52:54.795 --> 00:52:55.185
Yeah,

00:52:55.225 --> 00:52:57.945
Adam Fishman: kids pick up on
things so much faster than we do.

00:52:57.955 --> 00:52:58.535
It's pretty amazing.

00:52:58.535 --> 00:52:58.935
Nir Eyal: Yeah.

00:52:58.995 --> 00:53:02.335
And it's that whole, you know, she weighs
less, so it hurts less when she falls.

00:53:04.384 --> 00:53:05.455
Adam Fishman: That's, that's awesome.

00:53:05.755 --> 00:53:11.785
The last thing I wanted to ask you is
what do you do to make time for yourself?

00:53:11.794 --> 00:53:16.655
What are some ways that you recharge
your batteries or I remember

00:53:16.665 --> 00:53:19.595
hearing that exercise is really
important for you and being fit.

00:53:19.635 --> 00:53:20.835
I'm sure there are other things too.

00:53:20.855 --> 00:53:23.365
What are some of the kind of most
important things for you to make time

00:53:23.894 --> 00:53:24.194
Nir Eyal: for?

00:53:24.224 --> 00:53:24.444
Yeah.

00:53:24.445 --> 00:53:27.684
So in that section on making time for
traction, the first place to start is

00:53:27.684 --> 00:53:29.844
actually taking time for yourself, right?

00:53:29.844 --> 00:53:32.044
If you can't take care of yourself,
you can't take care of other people.

00:53:32.045 --> 00:53:33.294
You can't make the world a better place.

00:53:33.674 --> 00:53:36.905
So the first thing I do when I make my
schedule for the week is I make sure

00:53:36.905 --> 00:53:38.455
I have time to live out my values.

00:53:38.670 --> 00:53:42.240
In accordance with how the person I
want to become takes care of themselves.

00:53:42.630 --> 00:53:47.310
So time for reading in my schedule,
time for exercise in my schedule,

00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:48.910
time for a bedtime, right?

00:53:48.910 --> 00:53:50.849
I used to be a hypocrite and tell
my daughter, you have to go to bed.

00:53:50.850 --> 00:53:51.730
It's past your bedtime.

00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:55.340
And then one day she asked me, she said,
daddy, do you have a bedtime busted?

00:53:56.030 --> 00:53:56.360
I didn't.

00:53:56.360 --> 00:53:57.390
Yeah, now I do.

00:53:58.100 --> 00:53:59.449
So those are some of the
most important things.

00:53:59.449 --> 00:54:01.819
I, not that I necessarily
enjoy all these things.

00:54:01.819 --> 00:54:06.389
Like for example, I exercise, but I don't
really like exercise, but it's part of

00:54:06.390 --> 00:54:08.500
my values to take care of my health.

00:54:08.740 --> 00:54:12.340
And so I don't preach to anybody what they
should do with their time or attention.

00:54:12.590 --> 00:54:15.160
What I want to help people do is
to do whatever they want to do

00:54:15.160 --> 00:54:16.120
with their time and attention.

00:54:16.150 --> 00:54:19.400
And so if one of your values is to take
care of your health, if one of your

00:54:19.409 --> 00:54:23.109
values is to be the kind of person who
learns, you know, that has to be in your

00:54:23.109 --> 00:54:24.990
schedule as well as time for social media.

00:54:25.019 --> 00:54:27.200
I have social media time
scheduled in my day.

00:54:28.230 --> 00:54:30.580
So it's just a matter of figuring
out what you want to do with your

00:54:30.590 --> 00:54:33.330
time and making sure that time
is blocked out in accordance.

00:54:33.330 --> 00:54:36.880
And so even if it's, you know, if I have
time for social media, If I do anything

00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:40.740
else, right, if I check my email or I
do something quote unquote productive,

00:54:41.130 --> 00:54:44.450
that now is a distraction because what
I said I was going to do was that one

00:54:44.450 --> 00:54:44.710
Adam Fishman: thing.

00:54:45.170 --> 00:54:45.840
I love that.

00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:51.290
I love this idea of building in time
for recharge, building in time to kind

00:54:51.290 --> 00:54:53.629
of follow your values as a foundation.

00:54:53.669 --> 00:54:55.829
That's a great point to end on.

00:54:56.359 --> 00:54:57.609
Last question for you.

00:54:57.619 --> 00:55:00.699
How can people follow
along or be helpful to you?

00:55:00.699 --> 00:55:04.109
What's the best way to find out what your
latest project is or what you're up to?

00:55:04.635 --> 00:55:04.945
Nir Eyal: Sure.

00:55:04.955 --> 00:55:05.465
Thanks for asking.

00:55:05.465 --> 00:55:05.665
Yeah.

00:55:05.665 --> 00:55:07.265
So I'm writing another book actually.

00:55:07.265 --> 00:55:10.675
So if you want to keep updated on the
progress and my latest writings and

00:55:10.675 --> 00:55:12.875
research, you can go to near and far.

00:55:13.105 --> 00:55:14.525
com near a spell like my first name.

00:55:14.554 --> 00:55:16.525
And I are and far.

00:55:16.764 --> 00:55:19.594
com and my book is called
indistractable how to control your

00:55:19.594 --> 00:55:20.985
attention and choose your life.

00:55:21.395 --> 00:55:22.365
Adam Fishman: Thank you very much.

00:55:22.655 --> 00:55:25.895
Do we have a few minutes
for the rapid fire round?

00:55:26.085 --> 00:55:26.505
Nir Eyal: Sure.

00:55:26.505 --> 00:55:26.855
Let's do

00:55:26.855 --> 00:55:27.045
Adam Fishman: it.

00:55:27.305 --> 00:55:28.835
Okay, here we go.

00:55:29.075 --> 00:55:33.795
What is the most indispensable parenting
product that you have ever purchased?

00:55:34.825 --> 00:55:35.625
Nir Eyal: Baby wipes.

00:55:35.975 --> 00:55:36.385
It's gotta be.

00:55:38.025 --> 00:55:40.965
Adam Fishman: What is the
most useless parenting product

00:55:40.975 --> 00:55:42.255
that you have ever purchased?

00:55:42.525 --> 00:55:44.585
Nir Eyal: The second parenting book.

00:55:45.254 --> 00:55:47.205
Meaning, what do I mean by that?

00:55:47.375 --> 00:55:49.584
So actually a friend gave us this
advice that we didn't follow,

00:55:49.584 --> 00:55:50.655
but looking back we should have.

00:55:50.825 --> 00:55:53.675
Which is, he said, Just
buy one parenting book.

00:55:54.495 --> 00:55:57.165
Like, one parenting book, it actually
doesn't matter what the parenting book is.

00:55:57.395 --> 00:56:01.445
Just buy one, get on the same page
about that philosophy, and that's it.

00:56:01.514 --> 00:56:04.464
Because when you have two opposing,
like, one person reads one book and

00:56:04.464 --> 00:56:06.755
the other person reads the other book
and they don't agree with each other,

00:56:07.085 --> 00:56:11.075
that's actually more harmful than
just doing one and agreeing like, Hey,

00:56:11.075 --> 00:56:12.975
we're going to be a family unit here
and we're going to figure this out.

00:56:13.245 --> 00:56:14.835
As opposed to opposing philosophy.

00:56:14.845 --> 00:56:16.085
So the second parenting book.

00:56:16.765 --> 00:56:17.325
Adam Fishman: I love that.

00:56:17.335 --> 00:56:20.095
That is the most unique answer
I've ever had for that question.

00:56:20.115 --> 00:56:21.055
That's fantastic.

00:56:21.385 --> 00:56:25.804
What is the most frustrating thing
that has ever happened to you as a dad?

00:56:26.295 --> 00:56:28.465
Nir Eyal: I guess it's that
your kids keep changing, right?

00:56:28.465 --> 00:56:29.145
Especially when they're young.

00:56:29.165 --> 00:56:31.235
They don't change as much as they
get older, but when they're young,

00:56:31.545 --> 00:56:34.210
just when you think you've figured
them out, They change on you.

00:56:35.870 --> 00:56:37.780
But that's also part of
the beauty of it as well.

00:56:38.180 --> 00:56:38.860
Adam Fishman: I love that.

00:56:39.030 --> 00:56:42.079
What has been the favorite
age so far for your daughter?

00:56:42.080 --> 00:56:44.490
It sounds like it might be
one of the more recent ages.

00:56:44.530 --> 00:56:45.210
Nir Eyal: Yeah, for sure.

00:56:45.210 --> 00:56:45.650
Right now.

00:56:45.820 --> 00:56:46.000
Yeah.

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:48.749
If I could clone her, what
about the least favorite age?

00:56:48.830 --> 00:56:51.130
The sleepless nights weren't
fun in the very beginning.

00:56:51.740 --> 00:56:54.550
Adam Fishman: What would your daughter
say is the most embarrassing thing

00:56:54.550 --> 00:56:56.230
that you've ever done in front of her?

00:56:57.510 --> 00:56:59.330
Nir Eyal: You mean besides
the burping and farting?

00:57:01.180 --> 00:57:04.390
Adam Fishman: Yeah, what's maybe
the most absurd thing that your

00:57:04.390 --> 00:57:06.100
daughter has ever asked you to buy

00:57:06.180 --> 00:57:06.720
Nir Eyal: for her?

00:57:07.010 --> 00:57:12.230
So lately she really wants to go
to Australia for a concert that

00:57:12.540 --> 00:57:14.800
she really wants to go see a
concert with from Somebody who's

00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:16.710
not performing in Singapore,
but they're coming to Australia.

00:57:16.710 --> 00:57:18.645
So that's pretty absurd Okay.

00:57:18.685 --> 00:57:19.755
She's gonna have to pay
for that one herself.

00:57:20.295 --> 00:57:22.355
Adam Fishman: Yeah, that
sounds like a big one, yeah.

00:57:22.775 --> 00:57:25.985
What is your favorite kids movie?

00:57:26.305 --> 00:57:27.935
Nir Eyal: I don't know if it's
a kid's movie, but I watched it

00:57:27.965 --> 00:57:30.895
as a kid, and my daughter also
loved it, Back to the Future.

00:57:31.255 --> 00:57:31.775
Oh,

00:57:31.784 --> 00:57:32.604
Adam Fishman: that's a great one.

00:57:32.904 --> 00:57:36.994
My follow up to that was gonna be,
what is the, what is one nostalgic

00:57:37.025 --> 00:57:40.945
movie that you cannot wait to force
your daughter to watch, but maybe

00:57:40.945 --> 00:57:44.095
Back to the Future, although it
sounds like she Did that on her own.

00:57:44.215 --> 00:57:44.605
So I'll give

00:57:44.605 --> 00:57:45.385
Nir Eyal: you a better one.

00:57:45.385 --> 00:57:48.115
I think she needs to be maybe a little
bit older to really appreciate it.

00:57:48.115 --> 00:57:50.875
But this is my favorite movie of all
time, and very few people have seen it.

00:57:50.875 --> 00:57:52.465
It's called Empire of the Sun.

00:57:52.465 --> 00:57:53.545
Have you ever seen Empire of the Sun?

00:57:54.195 --> 00:57:55.395
Adam Fishman: No, I have

00:57:55.395 --> 00:57:55.725
Nir Eyal: not.

00:57:55.725 --> 00:57:57.015
See, nobody's seen this movie.

00:57:57.105 --> 00:57:59.265
Watch it today like it is.

00:57:59.270 --> 00:58:00.495
Okay, so good.

00:58:00.495 --> 00:58:00.975
It's okay.

00:58:01.065 --> 00:58:01.545
Check this out.

00:58:01.785 --> 00:58:03.825
It's John Malkovich, who I'm a big fan of.

00:58:03.825 --> 00:58:04.185
Okay.

00:58:04.595 --> 00:58:08.375
Steven Spielberg directed
it and Christian Bale.

00:58:08.755 --> 00:58:10.955
At 14 is the star of the movie.

00:58:11.575 --> 00:58:11.875
Wow.

00:58:12.105 --> 00:58:12.675
Christian Bale.

00:58:12.765 --> 00:58:13.205
Okay.

00:58:13.365 --> 00:58:14.995
Yeah, it is so good.

00:58:14.995 --> 00:58:18.185
It's historical fiction, but
it's based on what kind of

00:58:18.185 --> 00:58:19.444
events that could have happened.

00:58:19.515 --> 00:58:22.605
You know, it's one of these stories
that, that you can imagine happening.

00:58:22.925 --> 00:58:23.615
So good.

00:58:23.635 --> 00:58:24.615
My favorite movie of all time.

00:58:24.615 --> 00:58:26.554
I'm also a big airplane nut.

00:58:26.554 --> 00:58:27.915
So if you like airplanes.

00:58:28.225 --> 00:58:30.165
And you want to see
Christian Bale acting at 14.

00:58:30.455 --> 00:58:31.725
Adam Fishman: You've sold me this.

00:58:31.745 --> 00:58:36.825
I am doing, I'm leaving this conversation
and I'm going to go make time on

00:58:36.825 --> 00:58:38.335
my calendar to watch this movie.

00:58:38.344 --> 00:58:39.034
It's a sleeper

00:58:39.035 --> 00:58:39.235
Nir Eyal: hit.

00:58:39.235 --> 00:58:40.565
Nobody saw it, but it was my favorite.

00:58:40.605 --> 00:58:42.155
It's still is my favorite
movie of all time.

00:58:42.700 --> 00:58:44.880
Adam Fishman: Okay, my final question.

00:58:45.150 --> 00:58:48.610
Do you ever tell your
daughter back in my day

00:58:48.620 --> 00:58:53.389
Nir Eyal: stories all the
time, all of it, specifically

00:58:53.390 --> 00:58:55.050
when it comes to music, right?

00:58:55.050 --> 00:58:59.399
Like, because now she's, you know,
they're starting to remix songs

00:58:59.439 --> 00:59:02.299
from our day into like their music.

00:59:02.300 --> 00:59:04.710
And we're like, Oh, I remember
this song from back in the day.

00:59:04.710 --> 00:59:06.540
But you know, now it's
something completely different.

00:59:06.540 --> 00:59:08.350
And when I listened to when
she hears the original version,

00:59:08.350 --> 00:59:09.340
she's like, Oh, that's not right.

00:59:09.340 --> 00:59:10.130
They messed that one up.

00:59:11.030 --> 00:59:12.290
Adam Fishman: It doesn't
have the same beat.

00:59:14.230 --> 00:59:15.840
Well Nir, thank you so much.

00:59:15.850 --> 00:59:18.260
Your two books are Hooked
and Indistractable.

00:59:18.530 --> 00:59:20.760
I hope everyone gets a
chance to read those.

00:59:20.790 --> 00:59:23.720
I'm a huge fan of both
and I learned a ton today.

00:59:23.720 --> 00:59:25.780
And so thank you so much for joining me.

00:59:26.095 --> 00:59:26.605
On Startup

00:59:26.605 --> 00:59:27.105
Nir Eyal: Dad today.

00:59:27.565 --> 00:59:27.825
My

00:59:27.825 --> 00:59:28.215
Adam Fishman: pleasure.

00:59:28.215 --> 00:59:28.745
Thank you.

00:59:29.365 --> 00:59:32.805
Thank you for listening to today's
conversation with Nir Eyal.

00:59:33.225 --> 00:59:36.364
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00:59:38.915 --> 00:59:40.944
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00:59:41.510 --> 00:59:46.320
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00:59:47.310 --> 00:59:52.730
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01:00:04.360 --> 01:00:06.730
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