You Can Be Ambitious And A Great Dad | Nikunj Kothari (Dad of 2, Khosla, Opendoor, LinkedIn)

[00:00:00] Nikunj: I think more people probably estimate correctly that kids take a lot of time. But I think what people don't realize is just like how much more efficient you get as a human being when you know that there's so much time that like, you know, is so special with your kids. And somehow like, almost like plan accordingly. And so, you know, I meet many people, friends even today who are like, Hey, I am joining a fang company. Because we wanna have kids. And there's enough examples from your podcast as well, that you are able to kind of make things work as long as you have the support and kind of desire to do something.

[00:00:37] Adam: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep in the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. There's a dichotomy that exists with parenting and work. You can either be an ambitious, hardworking professional, or you can be a parent.

You can't be both. And while it's true that you often need a lot of support to do both of those things, it is possible to be both ambitious and a great dad in a dual working household. Today's guest is Nikunj Kothari, and he joined me to talk about exactly that. He's a former investor at Coastal Ventures, has been a product leader at Meter and Ship, and the head of growth for Opendoor.

He's also a husband and the father of a young daughter and a brand new son. In our conversation today, we spoke about the false dichotomy between ambition and parenting. The work it takes to prioritize your partner after the arrival of a new baby. How execution as a dad is only part of the big problem set mistakes he's made as a dad, and how the relationship with his own parents has changed since becoming a dad.

He shared his top tip for international flights with young kids. You won't wanna miss it. I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Nikunj Kothari.

[00:01:59] Adam: Welcome Nikunj Kothari to Startup Dad.

[00:02:04] Nikunj: Thanks Adam for taking the time. Excited to talk about startups and being a dad.

[00:02:08] Adam: Alright, well hopefully we'll talk about being a dad a lot more than startups. You probably talk about startups all day long. So, let's get going. You recently left your job, you're a venture partner at Cosla. What are you doing with your time now, besides dad?

[00:02:26] Nikunj: Yeah, I think the official term is I'm employed, but I think the cool kids nowadays tell me that you should say you're vibe coding, so I'll just stick to that. I've been vibe coding it's been about six weeks. You know, just have been spending a lot of time with family.

We have four generations in the house right now, which is wild. My grandparents are visiting. My mom's visiting as well, and then me and kids, which is crazy and chaotic. A lot of fun. And then I'm gonna get back into investing at some point, so figuring those plans out. But yeah, just a lot of quality family time and truly vibe coding some things on the side and building side projects, which I've never had the chance to do.

So, so that's been really fun.

[00:03:07] Adam: Yeah, that's great. With four generations in the house, are you getting a lot of feedback as a dad right now? Are people like commenting on your, parenting styles and stuff?

[00:03:17] Nikunj: Not directly, more like indirectly, I think I think directly. I don't think my grandparents or my mom is like very much, but indirectly yes. When they kind of just, you know, put an arm around the kids and they kind of like take them away when I'm trying to discipline them. And, you know, just like when they're not eating and I'm like.

Threatening them mildly about something and they're just kind of like, you know, no, let me take care of this. And, you know, all your plans just kind of go on the side and you just let them be them and just take deep breaths is kind of how I'm handling it. But no, no direct feedback yet.

Maybe later there'll be an essay waiting for me. Who knows?

[00:03:55] Adam: Who knows? Who knows? Well, speaking of feedback, tell me what you were like as a kid.

[00:04:01] Nikunj: I'm the third of three boys. And you know, I have two kids now and I was asking my mom, what were you thinking about like having a third kid? And she was like, I really wanted a girl. I'm like, okay, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Around there was like the naughtiest one, classic traits of being the youngest, always kind of, you know, making mischief, hyper enthusiastic, getting in trouble. Both my older brothers are just like, you know, phenomenal people. Like very, very good, well-mannered. And I would just like, you know, take all the other traits of them but yeah, just like always getting into mischief, always kind of outdoors and playing outside.

A lot of sports, a lot of just like, you know, energy that kind of to execute. And then always was kind of like. Up to doing shenanigans at Bend involves a lot of studying but surprisingly also just last minute managed to do work and kind of, you know, pass through things. yeah. And then some wild stories like with cousins with like, you know, I cut my first cousins hair while playing like house houses.

Like a good example of kind of what things were like, but very different. Now I kind of look back at it and see my kids and silently hoping they don't turn out like me and just more like my wife.

[00:05:15] Adam: Well now you won't be able to get super mad if one of your kids cuts the other one's hair in a few years.

[00:05:22] Nikunj: Yeah, it's probably, probably.

[00:05:24] Adam: Okay. So now fast forward many years from your childhood and you are now married to your wife. You have two kids. One of them, well I would say you have one kid like toddler and then you have one kid that's probably like a potted plant. You like set him down and he just kind of sits there. 'Cause he's four months, right?

[00:05:42] Nikunj: Yeah. Uh, been married to my wife for about eight years. shi, she moved here when we got married from India. And then we have two kids now. Mira is about three and a half. She's my first born daughter. And then we just had Rishi, a boy about four months ago. And it's, it's been great.

I think like everybody says, like it's just really fun seeing the siblings together. And so I'm enjoying all aspects of it. You know, Mira is just like very caring, like very attached, very much treats it as her child, like, constantly just wants Rishi in her lap and just like very caring. I guess like, maybe that's, you know, that's what it was like having like a daughter and a son and versus I assume like, you know, two boys.

I, I wouldn't even know. But it's just like very interesting to see that dynamic there. And Rishi’s also like very different. He's just like very chill, just like very zen. He just like cries when he is hungry. And other than that it was kind of just like a happy kid which is me.

That was very different. And so, yeah, the families, the four of us and then I. A lot of our families back home in India, but they come visit us a lot. And so, just enjoying family time with them and kind of seeing the dynamics is like really interesting. It's like a social experiment happening at home, which has been really fun to see.

[00:06:57] Adam: And your wife works as an engineer. Is that right? Or she may be off right now with the baby, but up until you left Cosla, you were both working fullish time, right?

[00:07:08] Nikunj: Yeah. Yeah. My wife is truly incredible. Like in India they say like, you know, there's only three things we're doing. Just like become like a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. She's already like two of three. So she was a lawyer in India. She moved here and then right before the pandemic, she kind of pivoted the software engineering and you know, did a bootcamp and then she worked at Shopify and Case text most recently. She's been in a sabbatical as well, trying to figure out what she wants to do next. I hope she does not wanna be a doctor, but like, I think I like, you know, she is, she is so smart that she can probably become one, there as well.

She's also trying to figure it out like what she wants to do now. You know, taking her background. But then she's very she's like loves people. She wants to be more customer facing. She's been also vibe coding and kind of like just building new things on the side for early education.

She's really taken on a lot of the, you know, development of our kids. And so yeah, she's trying to figure out what's next. Early education definitely seems to be a passion, but we'll see where that goes as well. But it's a unique time both of us are, you know, unemployed, getting to spend time with family and just enjoying that as much as possible before we know the way of life will get in the way.

[00:08:23] Adam: Well, and a good time to do it too, right? With you have two young kids and a, you know, for all intents and purposes as a newborn, even though he is four months old, it's kind of like you don't get this time again, right? So you ended up with two kids so far but you do have an interesting story about talking about kids with your wife before the two of you got married.

And I, I think. The two of you were decently far apart in your family size aspirations. Tell me about that story.

[00:08:50] Nikunj: You know, it was interesting that the topic of her kids came up at some point when we were deciding to get married. And, you know, I think it's an important topic to be very well aligned on. You both wanted to be intentional about, like, and it started with basically like, hey, like, or asking like, how many kids do you want?

And then without waiting for the response, this is how I remembered it, she was like, Hey, I want five. And I was like, you know, the math brain in me like, was like, okay, I need to like anchor, like really low. So to figure out like, you know, like I, I definitely didn't want five that much. I was clear on and I was like, in that moment of time I was 26, I was like, you know, kids seem like a drag.

I was like, come in the way of a lot of things. Time is the greatest resource. The, so the math brain in me of anchoring plus like. The ambivalence of what I thought I want, whether I wanted kids or not. It was like, okay, let me just anchor really low. As I said, zero. Luckily she didn't take it seriously and just like decided not to marry me.

But that was how I was like, responded. I was like, oh, you know, zero's okay as well. I always knew I wanted kids, and I grew up in a very family oriented family as well, and saw my niece being born and know my brother lives here as well. And so kind of, you know, always enjoyed it.

But yeah, I definitely didn't want five and so I had zero and we're at two now, I think I'm done. She is very, very ready to have more. And so it's a decent discussion in the house at this point. Who knows where, how much, how many we'll end up with, but I'm reasonably happy with the two we have right now, so.

[00:10:21] Adam: So at 26 when she asked you this question, you know, you were early in your career probably thinking about work all the time. Pretty ambitious. I imagine you're still an ambitious guy. And you know, one of the things that you pointed out when we were preparing for this conversation was that there does exist a false dichotomy, that you can't be ambitious and be a parent at the same time.

But I don't think you see that as true. So tell me, how you think about this.

[00:10:54] Nikunj: So there's some truth to it because I think time is the greatest enemy. Let's be very clear. I think more people probably estimate correctly that kids take a lot of time. But I think what people don't realize is just like how much more efficient you get as a human being when you know that there's so much time that like, you know, is so special with your kids. And somehow like, almost like plan accordingly. And so, you know, I meet many people, friends even today who are like, Hey, I am joining a fang company. Why? Because we wanna have kids. It's important for us to figure out, like, you know, how, and there's enough examples from your podcast as well, but like, I think from relying on my own, you know, two months before I got married, I , left you know, startup and joined another one six weeks before my first daughter was born.

You know, I joined a 10 person startup from, you know, leading growth at a public company. And it somehow worked out, you know, I think, would people be happier, including my wife if I probably didn't take those decisions? Yeah, sure. Like she would've probably wanted me to be more present, but I think that you are able to kind of make things work as long as you have the support and kind of desire to do something.

But I always see it as like, you know, people think that having kids is almost unambitious versus, I don't know. I, feel like I'm even more ambitious today because, you know, I want to make my kids proud and I want them to believe that, you know, they see the ambition in me so that when they grow up, they can kind of take similar decisions.

There's a push and pull, it's not for everyone, but I feel like the blanket statement, which, you know, people tend to throw out, which is that ambition. And kids often go in opposite directions. I just don't believe in it. I think you just have to take it case by case. And I'm not blanketly saying everybody should be opposite way, but I think you can make it work and you have to kind of figure it out with the support of your family.

And hopefully with examples you heard from other people that it is possible and kids will take all your time and take as little of time, as long as it's quality time as well.

[00:12:57] Adam: Yeah, I'd like to think that on this show I talk to a lot of fairly ambitious people who also happen to be parents. And maybe that's, you know, the reason that they're as ambitious as they are is 'cause they've got something, you know, worth fighting for, worth working hard for. And you know, the other thing you mentioned to me is that you waited maybe four years or so after getting married before and your wife had your first kid.

And I'm wondering if maybe it was that, you know, fear of loss of ambition that kind of delayed it. And if you do anything differently, you know, if you were able to rewind the clock, now that you know what you know about being a dad,

[00:13:38] Nikunj: Yeah, this is a tough one, I think. So I think there were two things for me. One was so just to be clear, like my wife was ready to have a kid the day we got married. She was like what are we waiting for.

[00:13:46] Adam: She's ready to have five.

[00:13:50] Nikunj: Yeah. And for me it was two things. One was definitely time and ambition, and I felt the kind of quad swapped up and like, you know, I was at a younger startup back then when we had gotten married. I was, you know, wanted to make a work in my career and I felt that kids could be a distraction or just take time away.

So that was one, and I think that I kind of just talked about where I think it's a little bit false. The second one is true though, which is like, I felt kids would just make sure I don't have enough time with my partner or my wife, and then kind of, you know, I won't be able to set a good solid foundation which like, you know, kids just add to more stress and I just like wanted to wait.

And I think that part is true though. And so, because I do feel it today, like I barely get to spend a lot of time. You know, oftentimes after kids go to bed, we just kind of staring at the TV glassy eye or just being like, you know, staying on, sitting on the opposite side of the couch with just like, don't talk to me.

I don't want to like, you know, I don't want to. And there are there other days, obviously we'll do date nights and stuff, but it does add stress 'cause you're sleep, deprived, you're tired mentally, physically, emotionally exhausted. And so that part I probably rightfully worried about. I do still think that we could have had kids earlier because I feel like, you know, the cliche line of like, you have rose tinted glasses on, or like, you know, as soon as you have kids and it's a whole new world you're seeing in like multicolor. And I think all of those things are true. And I do feel like even though I'm one of the younger true kid dads, at least in my neighborhood, or at least in the us I do feel like I have like less and less energy as every year goes by as much, even if I spend time working out and keeping my fitness high.

I don't want to be like, you know, like an older dad, especially when kids go out. I do want that second wind with my wife and partner once the kids are out of the house. And so, in the grand scheme of things, I think it's okay. Like up in Yeah, if I had it my way or if I had to rewind the clock, if, maybe not right after we got married in a year or two, given what I know now, I would've definitely wanted to have kids then.

[00:16:00] Adam: But still not five.

[00:16:03] Nikunj: So, so,

[00:16:04] Adam: Your wife won't listen to this.

[00:16:05] Nikunj: No, she will I, I'll be very honest, like, I think having kids in the Bay Area especially like it, so there's two things. One, it is, it's a huge financial strain. Like I think kids are expensive. Bay Area is very expensive. I don't have like, you know, let's call it like f you whatever, pg appropriate word, like money in the bank where I can just like, you know, throw money at the problem.

And so it is a concern. I think this is something that people don't talk about enough. I think it is a genuine strain. And so I think those things will take care of itself. I generally believe in that, but it, it is an active thinking line. But it's also like, yeah, it's like, again, this goes back to time and it just feels hard to just commit.

And like people say, like, you know, thirties are your best years in your career as well, and so. It does feel hard to kind of commit the time. And then, yeah, five just seems a lot and so even three is like, even two just feels okay because we can kind of trade each other, trade it off the moment it's like more kids versus parents.

Yeah. Then it's just like nonstop never ending. And maybe I'll get to it soon, but I, at this point it just seems too hard.

[00:17:15] Adam: Also in the Bay Area the vehicle that you would need to carry around five kids. I don't, I'm not even sure it exists in a crowded place like like the Bay Area,

[00:17:24] Nikunj: Yeah. Maybe Elon's working on one of the better mini, crazy, larger venue vans that operate by itself.

[00:17:31] Adam: Yes. You know, one of the things we chatted about was you sort of adopted or learned a new approach after your first daughter was born. Maybe we could say it was like learning things the hard way. About who really needs the most help when the kid is born.

And I think the maybe false premise is that it's your newborn and obviously they're pretty helpless. They can't do much for themselves, but you have a slightly modified take on this, which I think you've learned you know, from experience. And so I'm curious about that take.

[00:18:10] Nikunj: Yeah. I made a whole bunch of mistakes that I hope other people don't do. When. They have their first kid.

So because my parents were there and there was like help in the house, some help in the house, and most of the help I thought was mostly for the newborn. I went back to work like a week in after the newborn was born, thinking that, Hey, I'll take more paternity leave later when like, my wife's maternity leave kind of gets done.

And I was still working from home and not working all the hours, but it was, I was still like, very much at work. And that I think came from, that was just like a mistake because it's the counterintuitive thing that I think I tell most new dads now is your wife needs like a lot of support because nobody's paying attention to her.

Everybody like, you know, the nurse at the hospital, to the ob to your parents or the grandparents of the kids, to anybody that comes home to help out. Everybody just asks about the kid. It's like everything you buy is for the kid. Nothing is as much for like the mother. And I just didn't see that. I didn't see that the amount of help, emotional, physical, like fourth trimester crazy things that happen that you, men will never understand.

I just didn't see it and I just kind of assumed that with the support system we have that will be taken care of, but just by not being emotionally available as well. I think that was like a huge mistake. And I think, I tell dads all the time, like, I think you are the only person they can be very real with.

And so you just have to be available no matter what the situation is and work and other things can wait as much as possible, which I definitely didn't know and I just didn't make the right decision there. And so I knew dad should like, spend more time because again, with kids, you'll figure it out at the end of the day.

I think a lot of the silent pain that you see I think, you know, I didn't see the first time around. Mistake two is kind of just figuring out which I, we can go deeper into, but like, I feel sometimes like someone like me just like takes a lot of pride.

Oh, I'm doing a, Bb c or execution work like, you know, took out the grocery or just like handle the kid or did night duty and you have to kind of realize that execution is not the only thing. It's actually like the easiest thing to do with kids, like, you know, changing the diaper but I think actually like planning, whether it's like, you know what to buy, where to keep it, what happens every stage.

That's what takes a lot of the mental load versus execution's far easier. And I think I learned this like for like, after a few years where I was just much more like, I'll do the execution and I was taking pride at least I was doing enough and I didn't realize that that actually the easy part versus really planning for your kids or thinking through what's important for them.

It's like far, far, far more, takes far more time and energy versus you kind of patting yourself on the back and saying, Hey, at least you did A, B, C, which is just like not good enough. So.

[00:21:20] Adam: Yeah. Yeah. That it's that even if you're doing what you think is 50% of the execution work and you're like, Hey, we're splitting things 50-50, it's great. There's quite a bit of invisible labor that's happening there. And so, how do you get better at paying attention to that stuff now?

Because, you know, I think the execution work, also speaking as a dad myself, it is easy. You just have to say, oh, there's the garbage. It needs to go out. Oh, the groceries need to be purchased. Oh, you know, the, there's a mess on the floor we can pick up. But that other stuff that's like, not staring you in the face, what have you done to kind of figure out a better balance of that with your wife?

[00:22:08] Nikunj: I'll be honest, like I didn't proactively come up with it myself. It was like a conversation she had and I think that was the biggest mistake I should have just like recognized it upfront, you know, I'll be transparent and I didn't do it. But now that it's been brought up, I just, yeah, try to just think through.

This is where like, you know, things like ChatGPT and others have been super helpful. Kind of just like think through like, hey, here's the age, here's like personality for your kids. And at least consciously once a week or once in two weeks, I try to think through like, Hey, what are some interesting things that we can kind of do to help with the development?

And whether it's classes, whether it's like a new area of learning that they, they really like, whether it's even just planning like a weekend activities, instead of just saying groceries are missing proactively just ordering them and keeping them. And I'm still the journey of figuring it out by no means I've figured it out yet.

But these are things I like kind of think through versus like just being like, you know, putting it in the cart is kind of not important, just like actually doing it. And like not having to like ask them. And I'm still learning. I'm haven't cracked it yet, and hopefully in a few years I can do it.

But it's more just, yeah, actually taking the time to plan, like how we do planning on the product side or like, I think I just didn't do that at home versus just like hoping and executing and hoping it kind of gets done or just relying on someone to do it, which I think is unfair to put all the burden on like one person.

[00:23:38] Adam: Yeah. Well, I hope a bunch of other dads listening to this take that message to heart, so I appreciate you sharing it. You talked about when your oldest kid, your daughter was born, some mistakes you made and one of them was, you know, not. Maybe prioritizing your wife as much as you should have.

Obviously you've learned from that. You get the chance to do it again with now a four month old. But how do you and your wife, you know, despite exhaustion prioritize making time for each other now?

[00:24:09] Nikunj: Yeah, I think the first couple of months it was mostly just kinda getting through the full trimester. So we didn't do a ton. I think luckily we were both you know, I've been unemployed for six, seven weeks and she has had some time with sabbaticals. I think that has helped, just like not having to have something that takes on that entire day, plus having to do this.

And so that in itself I think has been consciously or luckily just like the best thing we've done. This time around. We had like, you know, her mom also come in like a few weeks earlier, which has allowed us like some space, but the first few months, you just don't have, like, you're also learning to be kids of two and so I think we not prioritize time with each other at least so far.

But I think now that the kids are sleeping more, like, you know, actively taking a little bit more time to be out and taking support of family and friends and maybe even like nanny to kind of take care of the kids while we do things. But it is something that, you know, I, we are trying to figure out how to actively prioritize.

Because even when Mira was born, my oldest, I think, you know, everybody says like, Hey, planned date nights and stuff, we did a little bit of it, but the best thing you probably did was we took, you know, into, you know, had Mira be in India and we went to Africa for 10 days and that was kind of like a, call it like a second honeymoon, which is really fun.

Finding out the active times to just spend time with each other, but. It's very hard. I don't like, I've talked to many couples and everybody says there's the theoretical, like, you know, date nights every two week, make sure you have a night sitter or like, and the reality, and it's just like even when we go out, but just like looking at the camera, just making sure they're asleep or like looking at photos.

And so, I don't know, I haven't cracked it yet. We haven't cracked it yet. But I think the one thing this time I'm gonna try to do much more is like create active space. So we did like a pottery class, like on a Monday afternoon just because we could. And I think that was kind of nice and find times to do that because I do feel it is an active partnership that you end up neglecting or just becomes like very mechanical, which you know, I think we can do better.

I can do better, especially.

[00:26:23] Adam: And one of the things about having kids, and especially with your very first kid, is well, with any kid you have these like extreme, you know, emotional swings between fear and anxiety and panic, and then like elation. And you have a really funny story. In our prep, you were kind of clueing me into about the first time that your daughter, your oldest slept through the night.

 It seems like you remember that experience pretty, pretty vividly. So tell me about that.

[00:26:51] Nikunj: We got extremely lucky with Mira. You know, we didn't do any sleep training. I think my wife did a really good job of, you know, making sure it's night at like 7:00 PM she'd turn off all the blinds, make it really dark in the house. We just like whisper. We wouldn't even like talk and just to acclimate there between like day and night.

And so, you know, she did a fantastic job of just like making me understand. But. Even at eight weeks, she started sleeping eight hours in the night consistently. And just is like, you know, every time you tell people that, they're like, you just cut the lottery. And we've generally been okay besides the sleep regressions.

But yeah, I remember the first time, you know, you wanna gets used to just waking up every three hours like clockwork and then, you know, feed burp, put them back to sleep and kind of repeat every three hours. And yeah, it was the first night like, you know, it's like, I think I remember it was like put them back to sleep and then it's like automatically like woke up and then didn't hear the crying and then just kind of just like didn't hear anything else and they're just like sleeping.

And my also woke out and we like, is everything okay? And you know. I went the crib and was just like staring at her like, are you okay? Like, you know, what's happening? And I took my finger, I think she took her finger and like put her under the nostril. Is she breathing? Is this okay? Like, should we like, wake her up?

And we try to like tug her and because everybody says, Hey, let the baby sleep when they want to sleep. But you know, in their instinct is just like, are you okay? Do you need more food? And you don't realize how they're, but yeah, remember it's like very funny. Kinda like paint a picture, just like standing out the crib and just like looking at the kid and putting a finger underneath.

I wish somebody was there to capture the photo, but yeah, she's like, blissfully sleeping. It's like through the night and like kept waking up every hour because you couldn't believe it. Or just like outta worry and panic and anxiety. But yeah, I, I remember this so, so vividly. And this time around second kid, you're like, yeah, you're sleeping great.

Don't wake up. Please don't. Like, we're not, we're not worried. You're like, oh, you sleeping great. How come like a long gap? I'm like, great. Like, good for you. Like my wife. The same, both of us look at each other like she’s sleeping. Great. Go back to the same.

[00:29:03] Adam: Yeah, It's so funny how that happens with your first kid. You're like, oh my God, they're quiet. Something must be wrong.

[00:29:12] Nikunj: Yeah, yeah,

[00:29:13] Adam: I need to go check. I remember that same thing happened with me and my wife. Our daughter's a lot older than yours now, but the first time she slept through, we both woke up in a panic, like in the, like, early hours in the morning.

We're like, oh my God, she's, she hasn't woken up. She must be dead. And nope, she was totally fine.

[00:29:32] Nikunj: It's a rite of passage because you hear about SIDS and you hear about like rolling over and you just, like, sometimes you just like find them working up like with their head on the pillow and you're just like, oh my God. Like, how do you breathe?

And they're blissfully unaware about like, what's happening. But yeah, it's just normal. And the R of Passage, and I think every parent goes through it. And I assume by the second one you're just kind of like, eh.

[00:29:57] Adam: That's right. You know, when I think about kids, one of the things that gives me some stress and anxiety is, especially when they're young, is traveling. And you don't seem to have an issue with that. And in fact, you've done something that I think is pretty cool. You've done these like dad daughter trips for the last few years with your oldest.

Starting when she was like year and a half, I think. So tell me about, one, I think it's very bold to take a, a one and a half year old on a big trip. But tell me about like what you've learned and sort of what you've done together.

[00:30:31] Nikunj: So, you know, my family lives in India, so I mean, my daughter took her first flight when she was nine weeks old. Like we took her to India when she was two months old. And yeah, it's like painful flight over and kind of, but she like slept through a lot of it. And then we got there, I think she was just generally like fussy, but like easy.

By no means it was easy like to travel all the way, but we were like, okay, we're gonna go to India, spend a bunch of her break there. And it was great just getting to spend like more hands on deck, like, you know, people kind of just to like help out with. We took her to Guadalajara for a wedding when she was seven months old and we took her to Italy for my best friend's wedding when she was like a year and a month old.

And all the trips like were not like fun as if like, you know, single or married Nikunj would think about it. But it was almost like a little bit of a necessity, but also like. Well, we've decided to bring someone in the world. We just wanna like, take her wherever we go and kind of just experience it and she won't remember it but at least I will.

And yeah, it's like stress is very high and you know, they not sleeping and, you know, crying. I remember one time Mira cried for like two hours straight on a flight, and I just, like, my arms were just dead, just like trying to rock her. And after that I swore I never got on a flight again. And then two months later I was on the flight again.

And it's just like moments in time make you feel that way, but kind of have to remember like why you're doing it. There's no way you can like remove the pain. Just kind of like being very clear and thoughtful about like why you're doing it and then the, that other thing.

Yeah, I think, I forget who I got the idea from, but I didn't know the two reasons to do it. One, again, to try to keep some sort of ritual. I knew once we had multiple kids or it's like about some time with like me and my daughter, and again, she won't remember this at least the first time around when she was one and a half, we just went to Sonoma.

I kept it simple, kind of like packed a bag, spent one night in Sonoma. Saturday, full day Sunday, full day and came back and this is great. And like we gotta spend, I don't know this by this point, she was sleeping in the night and we just spent the night at the hotel and just did all the kid things like children's museum and train rides.

And that was just really, really fun. And she doesn't remember that one. But then. We did it again. Mia was pregnant into the second one, it just, she joined us for a little bit, did the Sonoma again, and it was really fun. And then we went to London the first, and now she really remembers it.

She like, will come up to me and kind of be like, Hey dad, let's go to London again. And like, because she gotta spend time with us in the same room. She was just like, she remembers a lot, she remembers the bus. I think it's like these core memories that are like super important. and I remember them and I enjoyed them and yeah, with them more pain than you just traveling with adults. Sure. But there's something about ritual and something about like, I just kind of show them the world the way through your eyes is kind of a self belief I have. Yeah, by no means it's easy. Like we've had many fights about this internally, like, but I wanna keep doing it as much as I can. This year I'm taking her to Austin to see a friend. I'm going to take her to Denver to see another friend and just, she's like three and a half. It's so much easier. With Rishi, he's still pretty young, and so at some point I'll have to get out some kind of ritual with him, but it's too young.

[00:34:00] Adam: Awesome. So now that you have the beginnings of like a, hopefully a lifelong thing that you can do with each of your kids in, in individually.

[00:34:07] Nikunj: Yeah. I mean, I wanna try and do it. I won't have my wife commit to do it. She can do whatever she wants and then but I really like, I think Mira as like like both, like being out all the time, it's like outdoors is kind of, and then yeah, it'll be fun. We'll see how long it lasts, but trying to commit to it as much as I can.

[00:34:25] Adam: One of the things that I don't get a chance to ask people that often on this show, but you mentioned it in our preparation, is the relationship with your own parents and how that changes as you become a dad yourself. And so I'm curious to hear about that and how that's that's changed between you and your parents and watching them become grandparents and things like that.

[00:34:51] Nikunj: It's one of the most unexpected, unbelievable joys of my life. It's, yeah, I wrote this post called Have Kids Regional, which talks a little bit more deeper about this, and I did not know like what would happen. It kind of knew how, kind of expected what might change that. Like my partner would be in more like stresses than joys, which, you know, as they've gotten older, it's like more and more joyful.

But yeah it's quite unbelievable with like my own parents. Like the amount of empathy you have when you have your own kids, should completely change the way you kind of, think about them and approach them. And definitely happened to me, like, you know, when you're up six times a night, kind of like changing diapers and you're sleepless, like trying to take them somewhere.

Can't help but imagine like, you know, how things were probably even harder for them back in the day with less, with technology, less with like all the tools we have at our disposal. And they still like managed to raise semi-normal human beings, which is just like mind blowing. And I, you know, as I got older, I moved to the states when I was 17, you know. Chat once a week and oftentimes like mostly initiated by them. And I was like, kind of kept my distance, classic generational gap, like, you know, they won't understand. And it was very much one way director that still loved them, still ended up like going home and still loved spending time with them.

But it wasn't like an active line of discussion. It was more like, what did you do? Did this, told them about some tech jargon and they'd be like, whatever, go away. So, and they'd tell you something about Indian society and I'd just be like, I'm not interested. But then we had Mira and they is like, you know, FaceTime her every day because my grandparents would see them and normally create this natural habit where we are just chatting every day.

And like, you obviously doing some with the kid, but the kid's not doing much. You just started talking to them every day. Starting like really understanding them, empathizing, kind of like what they're doing. I created like a new relationship, like in a way that, more frequent, more like, you know, at least it's more one sided I feel because I'm like a new person.

They're probably the same. And then seeing real unconditional love. Like, you know, my dad, I remember I have an older niece. First time I saw him it was like dad of three boys. You can kind of imagine. And like he is holding a niece and he is just like cooing and babbling and just smiling so much. I'm like, who is this person?

It's like, and like you're just kind of just like, who are you? Why are you like, what are you doing? You like, you know, this is not the role or like image in my head. And I see him, see them the same with my kids. And it's just unbelievable seeing like they've come out of unconditional love or the amount of time they take out, or just like, you know, spoiling them.

And then you can see that they've just been waiting to have this moment because when they had their own kids, they're just like constantly stressed about them because with the grandkids you can just like have fun and I dunno. So both towards my parents and I think seeing them this nice feedback loop that just makes me feel a little bit more closer and kind of at least understanding even if I don't feel like the relationship ball a lot, but at least like understanding where they came from.

And it's, it was entirely unexpected. Like everybody talks about like, you know, kids and the unconditional love you feel towards them. I don't think I've read much or like I talked about much is the relationship and how it changes with your own parents as well.

[00:38:18] Adam: How has, how you parent changed from your daughter to your now four month old son? You kind of hinted at this a little bit earlier maybe you're a little bit more relaxed and things like that. But any other things that you have observed about how you're changing as a dad?

[00:38:42] Nikunj: Yeah, it's a little bit early. I mean, I'm not parenting the child as much. I do think things have changed in the sense, yeah, I think you're just naturally more relaxed because you kind of know what to do. And so I everybody says that the kid mirrors that as well. I am trying to take a little bit more of an active role this time around, you know, actively spending more time with the kids and kind of like actively spending more time thinking about what are the things we can do.

You do get like a little bit of a freebie because a lot of the toys you have for the first one end up working at the same one. You kind of know the drill a little bit more, but actively try to take some time to figure what can I do differently? I think the biggest thing I've been trying to do is like.

Like, you know, toddler has a lot of energy and so she's spending time with her, whether it's outside the house or just shielding time with the baby, and especially giving the mom a lot more rest if I can. And so I think that has changed a fundamental way, which has been spending more time with my daughter, which is boom.

Some days I just like hard. But yeah, it's a little too early to see parenting wise. Again, Rishi was just very different. Like Mira was, she came out kicking and she's never stopped since then. And I think this kid is just like pretty chill. He's just generally happy. Not as fussy, like cries a lot when he’s hungry, but that, like, that's, it's pretty easier.

But so I'm sure it's a lot of just like learnings from the first time. I'm terrified. I don't know. I'm such a like girl Dad, I'm like, terrified. I don't know what I'm gonna do with this. Both me and like, sometimes we look at each other like, what are we gonna do with she, we'll figure it out. But we were both just mentally ready for another girl.

So

[00:40:23] Adam: Yeah,

[00:40:24] Nikunj: It would be interesting to say the least.

[00:40:27] Adam: Yeah when you have one of those uh, pseudo emergencies where you've gotta take your daughter out of the house on short notice, what's like your go-to spot or activity?

[00:40:38] Nikunj: Yeah, it used to be just like parks. Even now I think like, we have a little bit of a backyard, so sometimes I just like take her out there, which is nice and kind of just play football. Oh, sorry, soccer or, or kind of just run around but yeah, park's still the favorite activity. She likes more museums now, so.

Children's Museum in SF to the curator, Ossey, which is one in the Peninsula and the Bay Area. Look pretty close to the airport, so sometimes I'll just take her to a park by the airport and just watch planes, which she loves a lot. And then zoo's also 15 minutes away. So those are,

[00:41:15] Adam: Wow.

[00:41:16] Nikunj: Those are some of the things we can do.

Very blessed to live where we live, so.

[00:41:21] Adam: Wow. That's like a lot of great activities in a very short radius around your house. So partnership we talked about this, about when your daughter was born, when your son was born. Partnership's super important. Obviously paying attention to your spouse being on the same page on parenting styles and things like that.

But, it's also hard to agree a hundred percent of the time, especially when you're sleep deprived. What is an area that you and your wife don't agree on when it comes to parenting or one that you're like working through your differences on?

[00:41:53] Nikunj: So I mean, I was, I've been honest this like, I don't think it was much of a partnership to begin with. I think she did a lot. She continues to do a lot. I've been trying to get to be more of a partnership in the first place. I think that's the biggest one to kind of nail. But other than that, like, our natures are very different.

She is very detail oriented, very much a perfectionist, very much likes everything clean to the point, like it's spotless. And I'm like the opposite, like, you know, it's like I'm very much like fly by the pants. A lot of the things are just you know, even how we cook is like different.

I'll just put things together and she'll be like, no, no, no. Follow this like, exact recipe. So I think like that nature is very hard, especially when it comes to kids that the line can be drawn either way in the sand and typically where it's drawn one person's happier than the other.

And so whether it's how clean should we should keep the playroom at night to like, you know, the ingredients that goes in like the baby food and the precision of that to, how badly I didn't clean the bottles that go in the, you know, the steamer thing that cleans it. Like to perfection to where the formula is like one hour and one minute old and that's fine.

Where she's like, nope, like, you know, you gotta throw it away and try a new one. To how many times can the pacifier fall on the floor before you have to clean them? I think the precision in those things is what ends up becoming a common point of constraint and I think that's, it's more minutia. Values wise I think we're pretty aligned. Continue to find our own values. Also what we want to, I invite in our kids, which has been fun and interesting. And then I think as kids grow older the, the main discussions in the houses, I mean, kids need us three and a half, should we do public? Should we do private education?

Kind of like, you know, what are the things we do? And so those are interesting things that are coming our way. We'll have to take bigger decisions on. So far we've kind of been lucky to kind of push it towards the end, but it's more about these like I am very much do things that they come and oh, let's go to San Diego for a weekend with our two and a half month old, which we did.

And she is like, what are you doing?

[00:44:04] Adam: He's like, we'll just throw a few things in a bag. We'll be fine.

[00:44:09] Nikunj: Yeah. Yeah. And I think yeah, that causes a lot of strife. So more for her than for me.

[00:44:17] Adam: Yeah. Oh, I'll bet. She is, she used to just correct. She used to fix all the things. You know, when you were describing the bottle washing and the formula, the one thing that came to mind, I was like, oh, she's definitely on, on track to becoming a doctor.

So.

[00:44:32] Nikunj: Yeah.

[00:44:33] Adam: You're in trouble. She will have completed the trifecta.

[00:44:36] Nikunj: Oh man. I think she can do, yeah. I hope for her, she doesn't but, like she is, yeah. She's so capable. She can do whatever she wants. But no, it's, yeah, it's like you realize them too, like more minutia. I think hopefully by then a lot of, like, hopefully your values are aligned, at least like how you think about it.

It's more about those things and then it's, then the other piece is like agency and active partnership, which I think kind of talked about like execution versus like really planning and thinking through things.

[00:45:04] Adam: Yeah. So both you and your wife have worked in technology. You've invested in technology companies extensively. You know, she pivoted to be an engineer. You were product leader. And your kids are still really young, so technology's not a major part of their lives just yet. But how do you think about, and have the two of you chatted about what the relationship you want your kids to have with technology is as they get older?

I mean, especially because we're living in a very interesting and fast moving technology change right now.

[00:45:40] Nikunj: We not had like an active discussion, but I can talk about like some of the decisions we've kind of taken that maybe hint towards that as well. I think we're both like pretty pro technology in general. I think, you know, there's one end of the spectrum. We have parents and so like no screen time, no tv, no digital activity and stimulation whatsoever.

And there's the other which is like, you know, end of the spectrum, which is co melon all the time. Kind of just like, you know, unlimited, like, you know, kids can have all the agency you want, you can't really parent them. So that's like the spectrum. We have probably friends on either side of the spectrum.

We're much more like controlled adaptive learning kind of is super important and if screen time is helping them advance their thinking, they're learning, then do it, but do it in like a controlled and adaptive fashion. So we didn't give Mira any, we talk about Mira 'cause she's too young, but like we didn't give Mira anything till she was like almost a year and a half. And then after that also she just watched like Miss Rachel and she like picked up a lot from that, controlled it to like, you know, a certain amount to today.

Like, you know, yeah, she doesn't get any screen time over the week, but at least long screen time in the weekend she can watch whatever we kind of control programming for. But yeah, we've given her things like AWA for 15 minutes a day and kind of seeing how fast she's able to pick up like alphabets and reading and to the, you know, my wife says experiment with a bunch of other apps as well where she's like doing dual A, B, C and, but again, it's like all the control where she gets 15, 20 minutes a day max.

Usually after dinner and we are seeing progress and improvements faster than either our own mental capacity would have been had or you know, she would've done if she kind of left her to her devices or just with no technology whatsoever. I put ChatGPT Advanced Voice more in front of her and she's asking questions.

And I think that kind of interface is nice where like, you know, you just like screen less but nothing to see, but you're kind of able to hear and through voice. I'm really excited about that, where like something is there. I don't want it to feel like a companion that's social angle I'm worried with, but other than that, like, it's like a nice answer device and so.

You kind of experimented and pushed it in things that make sense to us without like, this blanket, like all screen time is bad, which you just don't fundamentally believe in. Like, you know, I probably grew up watching, I don't know, three hours of TV a day, like, like grow right after school and they might turned out okay.

And so, I feel like parents could be like a little bit more forbearing, but it's their choice and we've chosen to do this and that kind of works well for us. I think the best way is don't give other people advice, just kinda share what you do. And then it's up to them to kind of think about it if they wanna do it or not.

[00:48:27] Adam: Yeah. That's kind of the goal of these conversations too. And it, we're never being prescriptive about what other folks should do, but just sort of what works for you and how you're prioritizing it. And if somebody tends to align with that, great. And, you know, everyone's got their own perspective. So, but I would say, I think everyone can probably agree on the 10 hours of Coco Melon.

Maybe a little bit too much, a little too much Coco Melon. Actually, probably one minute of Coco Melon is a

Coco Melon.

[00:48:52] Nikunj: A fun hack we did there, which I think my wife did, was like, we basically told her like, Hey, Coco Melon's not available in the United States. And so she, she would call my wife's mama and like, ask for it sometimes, like, you know, you know, like Nani, like, that's like maternal, like, it's like when I come to India I'm gonna watch Coco Melon because it's only available in India and it's really funny.

But it works. She's never asked for it. Yeah.

[00:49:20] Adam: Yeah. You'll have to find a reason why it's suddenly not available in India. The next time you go,

[00:49:24] Nikunj: Oh, yeah.

[00:49:24] Adam: Go and visit. It's broken. Coco Melon's broken today.

[00:49:28] Nikunj: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:49:30] Adam: Last couple questions for you before the infamous lightning round. Do you have a favorite book or books that you like to read to your kids?

[00:49:38] Nikunj: Yeah. My absolute favorite is Spring Is Here. It's like this kids book. It's so simple. Like, it's just like very, it's almost like when you pick it up, people, all, people won't get it, but, oh, like all my happy memories, like reading book too would be like, Spring Is Here to my eldest daughter and it just like exclude like a sense of calm and just quiet and she like would keep asking for it over and over again.

And so it's become now my favorite. And sometimes I'll just like pick it up out of habit even though we have much older books that she can probably do. It's just something about the imagery, something about the way they kind of talk about it. I know every pixel of like every like small inch of that book and I give my favorite gift to give a new parent.

[00:50:22] Adam: Oh, that's amazing. I don't think I've heard of that book. I wonder if it was a book when my kids were little, but I now, now I'm gonna have to check it

[00:50:30] Nikunj: I think it's like 30 years old or something. It's very old. It's, as I said, it's entirely, it's personal and what I like and I think I dunno, just makes me very happy every time I read it.

[00:50:41] Adam: Yeah, Spring Is Here. All right. We'll link to it. Last question. How can people follow along or be helpful to you on your journey?

[00:50:52] Nikunj: Yeah. I think I'm easiest available on X or Twitter. My handle is just at @nikunj, which is my first name. Nothing actively needed for help. I'm always interested in, you know, learning new things about constantly, what's happening in technology, whether it's for kids, whether it's for the world. There's, you know, ideas, tcs things you're building.

You kind of wanna reach out like, you know, happy to kind of jam and brainstorm. I think nothing to ask today, but appreciate you asking.

[00:51:21] Adam: Okay. Are you sharing your latest vibe coding projects on X?

[00:51:25] Nikunj: Yeah I, I should start doing more. I have a few that I built out, but nothing that I've shared yet. It's coming soon.

[00:51:32] Adam: Okay, well I'll have to follow that. Follow the space closely, folks. It's coming. Alright. Are you ready for lightning round? 

Nikunj: Ready, Ready.

Adam: Okay, here we go. What is the most indispensable parenting product that you have ever purchased?

[00:51:47] Nikunj: Oh man. It's like this Magic Merlin sleep suit. It's truly like magic. You know, we put it on Rishi, my youngest son and then it went from literally Huckle Huckleberry, which is this app. You used to tracking things. Three hour, three hour, three hour segment, and then suddenly it was like eight hours.

The next day he slept through the night and we, again, same thing that happened with Mira happened with this time, but this time we kind of just like looked at you and went back to sleep. So it's excellent.

[00:52:12] Adam: The Merlin sleep sack. Okay. What is the most useless parenting product that you've ever purchased?

[00:52:20] Nikunj: It's kind of like a hot take, but like the first two years, like all the toys you end up buying, your kids never use them. They like all the things that are normal, like the TV remote and the kitchen utensil and like the, I don't know, just like the random things they'll pick up from the floor.

They'll never use your toy. At least that's happens with us. And so the whole category of like useless things we probably bought, hoping they'll read it. I still think books are important, but yeah, it's like a lot of toys. It's just like, don't pay attention at all. Such a, it's such a weird thing.

[00:52:51] Adam: I love that. Just give 'em a wooden spoon. Don't bother buying anything else. That's it. So.

[00:52:56] Nikunj: Don't quote me on that exactly. But yes, yes.

[00:52:59] Adam: Books and a wooden spoon and they'll be fine. Okay. What is your signature Dad's superpower?

[00:53:07] Nikunj: Like ability to like hum or sing a random song at will that may or may not have success in calming your child down, but at least I can attempt it and I kind of know all the poses of holding a kid now really well. Like I try like three or four in like a minute to figure out what's most comfortable.

And plus with that, I think is, I think it works pretty well. We'll see.

[00:53:30] Adam: Yeah, I like that. Okay. So humming maybe calms you down, if not the kid.

[00:53:35] Nikunj: one hundred percent. Hundred percent.

[00:53:38] Adam: And then the multi hold. I like that. What is the crazier block of time in your house right now? 6:00 AM to 8:00 AM or 5:00 PM to 7:00 PM.

[00:53:49] Nikunj: Five to 7:00 PM It's mayhem. It's like everybody knows not to like text me or call me at that time because I will not be able to like help you.

[00:53:58] Adam: All right. Well the next time we record an episode with you we'll do it right at five to seven. You could bring both the kids, it'll be great.

[00:54:04] Nikunj: You get the real parenting lesson. Then shouting all over like please go to sleep.

[00:54:12] Adam: Okay. Swings or slides?

[00:54:14] Nikunj: Ah, swings.

[00:54:16] Adam: All right. What is your go-to dad wardrobe?

[00:54:21] Nikunj: I bought eight sweatshirts of different colors. This is one of them and I have four jeans and I just mix and match. It works really well.

[00:54:29] Adam: I love that. Simple and straightforward. What is your go-to bribe for good behavior in your house?

[00:54:37] Nikunj: Chocolate. Ice cream. Ice cream. I love ice cream, so I make it work both ways. I also eat ice cream, then.

[00:54:44] Adam: Okay, everyone gets a dish of ice cream.

[00:54:46] Nikunj: Everyone gets ice cream.

[00:54:48] Adam: What is the most absurd thing that your daughter has ever asked you to buy for her?

[00:54:53] Nikunj: I think it was like someone's random lollipop on the floor that like she wanted the exact same, like half cut one. I think this was like at the zoo a couple of months ago, which I was just like, why? Like I can give you a new one. And she was like, no, I want this one and this only.

[00:55:09] Adam: I love that. Oh, that's perfect. What is your favorite kid's movie?

[00:55:17] Nikunj: Mine is probably like Home Alone or Dunston Checks In. For Mira, it's like Moana, like every day she asks about it.

[00:55:25] Adam: It is a great film, actually. All of those are great films. What is the worst experience you've ever had assembling a kid's toy or a piece of furniture?

[00:55:36] Nikunj: I think a mini crib we got, like, we didn't have, we lived in a two bed, two bath apartment and we like wanted like this small mini crib. Yeah, it had like so many curve pieces that I think it's still use. It works fine, but like the amount of stress I went through that like would not wish that about anybody else.

[00:55:53] Adam: Yeah. One of the problems with a mini crib is mini pieces to put it together.

[00:55:57] Nikunj: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:55:59] Adam: Do you have a nostalgic movie that you are just dying to force your daughter to watch with you?

[00:56:05] Nikunj: I think Home Alone, she's too young. Maybe I can do it. But yeah, it's like I cannot think about any other movie. It's Home Alone Two, it's not as good, but just so good. Like you can't, and then there's this Hindi movie called Kal Ho Naa Ho, which means like, you may not get tomorrow at like this old Bollywood film, but I remember just watching it with my cousins, like on repeat every day for a long time.

So those two,

[00:56:29] Adam: Okay. What is your favorite dad hack for road trips or flights? You've been on a lot of flights, so maybe you got one for flights.

[00:56:39] Nikunj: It's like those poofy things that are like illegal in airlines. I should not say this, but like, it like just makes the kid like a bed. I like highly recommend just getting one and, tight, compact, you blow it. Secret attack is like, don't do it till the lights go off and then immediately put a blanket on top of it so the flight attendants don't see it.

Yeah, that just saves our life all the time. I think it's like illegal in a bunch of flights, so hopefully no, none of them are listening to me.

[00:57:06] Adam: I'm, they're coming to you right now. I was unaware of this device, but, well, my kids are a little bit too old for it, but good to know. That's a, that's an important one. And you know what, I'll allow it. It's fine. I'm, I'm gonna let you do it. Okay. Last question for you. You don't have five kids yet, but what is your take on minivans?

[00:57:29] Nikunj: I don't know. So like, I see the appeal now. I would always be like, why would anybody buy them before? But now I see the appeal, the amount of stuff model wide. They model wide works pretty well. But yeah, like. They come out on like a sexy looking like electric minivan. I'd be all for it. I'd put on the first deposit.

I think Volkswagen just came out with one that looks really good. And so I think I'm getting into minivan territory.

[00:57:54] Adam: Okay. Well check back in this space folks. You may see Nikunj with a minivan here in another year or two, but alright. Thank you Nikunj for joining me on Startup Dad today. This was a fantastic conversation and I'm so glad I got to have you on it.

[00:58:12] Nikunj: Thank you Adam. Thank you for doing this. I, you know, hope people get to learn a thing or two and you know, it's just broadly helpful to bring out more like topics like this that are beyond the just tech echo chamber we end up living in. So thank you for doing this.

[00:58:26] Adam: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Nikunj Kothari. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review on Apple or Spotify. It'll help other people find this podcast.

Startup Dad has a YouTube channel. You can find it by searching Startup Dad pod on YouTube. If you're a startup founder, leader, or just want to get better at your job in tech as a growth practitioner, product manager or executive, you can join a community of 12,000 subscribers and stay up to date on my thoughts on growth and product by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter.com.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.