Me, Me, and We Nights: Keeping Identity as Parents | Jeff Okita & Jamie Lee (Parents of 1, Tilt & JME Labs)

Jamie Lee (00:00:00):
Go hang out with some girlfriends or maybe watch a movie solo, like things you can't really do with a kid. And then the We Night, which has been hard to get more regularly, but this is when we travel to see family. It's more like a date night.

Jeff Okita (00:00:12):
It's important for us to maintain some sense of our pre-baby self. It feels really important to us and totally in line with our own philosophy of being able to have people help us so that we can do all the things that we want to do.

Adam Fishman (00:00:27):
Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups in business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. A lot of hardworking professionals are nervous about their foray into parenting. To learn more about how One Power Couple has made it all work, I talked to Jamie Lee and Jeff Akita. Jamie started her career in retail and technology and now runs her own consulting business called JME Labs. Jeff is the VP of product at Leave management platform Company Tilt their husband and wife and parents of a 14 month old daughter. On today's episode, we talked about the concept of the extended team, the four C's, coordination, communication, compromise and creativity, and the concept of me, me and We Nights, we spend a lot of time on flying. They've taken their daughter on 15 flights and two international trips, and also how to maintain your sense of self after your baby arrives. If you like what you hear, please subscribe on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast player so you never miss a weekly episode. Welcome Jeff and Jamie to startup. Dad, it is a pleasure having both of you here today. Thank you for joining me.

Jamie Lee (00:01:48):
Thanks for having us, Adam.

Adam Fishman (00:01:49):
Yeah, thank you so much for having us. Awesome. Well, there are obviously two of you. This is not a normal recording of startup dad. Usually there's only one and it's a dad. But hey, I love having couples on here, so let's do it. You are a two working parent household with a 14 month old Jeff. You're the VP of product of the startup, and Jamie, you run your own consulting business helping startups and small businesses, not exactly what I would describe as lightweight jobs. And you mentioned as we were preparing for this, that requires figuring out or finding your extended team. So tell me what the extended team is in your household.

Jeff Okita (00:02:34):
I think I am very much a pragmatist in terms of just how many hours there are in a day, and I know that both Jamie and my jobs are pretty intensive. And then also just it's important for us to maintain some sense of our pre-baby self. And so given all of that, it feels really important to us and totally in line with our own philosophy of being able to have people help us so that we can do all the things that we want to do. So it was pretty important for us to surround ourselves with either experts that can help guide us through current hood or people that can help us with our training or our nutrition or all these different things that are just important components for us. And so when we talk about our extended team, that means everything from a full-time nanny, a nutritionist, Jamie and I share a nutritionist, run coaches. Jamie has several other coaches for the races that she does, family and friends, household management, and I mean we even view things like chat GPT as part of our extended team. So it's really the whole gamut.

Adam Fishman (00:03:45):
Do either of you have any family that's nearby?

Jamie Lee (00:03:48):
My family is in Seattle, so within driving distance. So if we need help in a pinch for weekends, but nothing within striking distance of like, Hey, we need emergency help tonight, can you come over?

Adam Fishman (00:04:00):
What have you had to do in an emergency or have you had an emergency situation?

Jeff Okita (00:04:05):
We have not yet gotten to the point where we have kind of the escalation call list of like, oh, okay, the nanny's not free. Who's next on the list? We haven't yet quite set up those things, but I think we do need it. And I think part of that is our daughter is not going to daycare yet and so is not bringing home a bunch of germs and then you really need that childcare escalation support just in case the nanny's not willing to come or something like that. So for us right now when we have unexpected a scenario where we have to take care of Arden, we have to blow up our calendars. Jamie takes a slot, figures out how to move her meetings around, I have to do the same thing. And so it just requires a ton of communication and juggling to just cover the hours that we need to.

Adam Fishman (00:04:50):
So we're dual working household very intense jobs. The two of you described a concept to me that I will call the three Cs, which is coordination, communication, and compromise. And Jeff, you just kind of named all three of them in one scenario. I would probably add a fourth too, which is creativity, getting creative on stuff. How do the three or four, or maybe there's 20 Cs work in your household? Tell me about coordination, communication and compromise.

Jamie Lee (00:05:22):
Yeah, I'll actually start with the creative because I feel like that's something that we've had to be really dynamic in working together with. I know as an individual, as a mom, it's all about multitasking. What can I do with baby? So for instance, outside of the day job and work, there's workouts and continued learning and podcasts that I want to listen to. Oh, and by the way, I have to take care of the baby from four to 6:00 PM So usually what I'll do is I'll go for a run sometimes with the baby while listening to a podcast. And when I tell my non-parent friends that they're like, that sounds really dry and complicated, but I was like, Hey, when you need to finish three things at once, what can you do in combination with one another? Or if I need to run a really critical errand during the day, it's like, okay, what can I do when childcare is here and can I just do a ton of my heads down work at night when Arden goes to sleep at seven or 8:00 PM What are my child free hours where I can still do focused work or go and run errands when things are open?

(00:06:20):
So I think it's getting really creative with the calendar and looking for ways to not only double multitask, but seeing if I can do three things at once. A part of my motherhood journey. I was nursing and pumping for the first year and we were at Disney World and I was like, well, we don't want to miss out on this line. So I kind of strap her on, put a cover on it and I was like, well, she's going to be fed while we wait in line. So it's like you have to get really creative in finding ways to do the things you want to do while still raising a child.

Adam Fishman (00:06:48):
What about communication for the two of you? I don't know, Jeff, if you have any rituals or processes that you do around communication?

Jeff Okita (00:06:56):
Part of it comes naturally because Jamie and I lean into the organization a lot and just with our busy schedule, it just kind of comes naturally that we know that we need to stay in really good communication with us to make sure that we cover all the things that we need to do. So we do have it scheduled, we have a shared Google calendar, we have some timeframes where we can map out the week. We have monthly check-ins on the calendar as well. It ends up being a lot more fluid than that, that we have that time reserved, but it just comes naturally that we know that as it comes to Sunday evening and we have a really busy week that we touch base to figure out what's going on in your world, what's going on in nine, are there any expected time blocks that one of us needs to cover even?

(00:07:41):
How are we feeling? And if one of us needs a bit more of a break, figuring out how we can carry the load. And so I think it's really important to stay in touch with your partner when everything is busy. Aside from work, I think Jamie is a little bit underplaying. Some of her workouts. She really competes in some of these races that she does. And so when she's working out, it's a 90 minute intensive thing, six days per week, and so it takes up a tremendous amount of time. And so that's important to her, important for her goals. And so that just means less hours in the day that she has to be available to take care of art in. And so balancing that and figuring out how I can also take my time to prioritize some of the things that I want to, it's all kind of this juggling act that I don't think is possible unless you have some of these rituals and you can be open about your needs and your desires and be on the same page as your partner.

Adam Fishman (00:08:36):
I'm curious too about compromise. So where have the two of you had to make trade-offs or when does that dual track of communication and compromise come into play with a young 14 month old?

Jamie Lee (00:08:52):
So we call it me, so that means every three to four weeks Jeff gets an evening to himself. So it's anytime after childcare ends. So 4:00 PM onwards, I get an evening to myself that can be like, Hey, solo spa time, get my nails done, or go hang out with some girlfriends or maybe watch a movie solo. Things you can't really do with a kid. And then the we night, which has been hard to get more regularly, but this is when we travel to see family, it's more like a date night or a night out with friends that we get to do together, leave Arden at home to give us a sense of almost like pre parenthood sanity or the things that we enjoy to do previously. We want to make sure that still continues on. And the compromise is more like, okay, this night I'm on full on baby duty. The other night Jeff's on full on baby duty. And then also working with our family to say like, Hey, can you also cover? And it's definitely a balance. We both travel a lot, sometimes for business, sometimes for pleasure, individually or together. So that gets a lot more complicated when you bring a child into the picture

Jeff Okita (00:09:54):
And that means that this Wednesday I might take it next week is Jamie and then the third week we're doing something together. So that means that you're really only soloing the child for one day every three weeks. And so that creates a lot of balance and just kind of prioritizes you, making sure that you have some time to yourself, which I think is really, really critical and important. Damien and I were not the type of individuals before becoming parents that we were never eager and rushed to become parents. It was the right time and circumstance for us to do that. We're both pretty independent people and we knew that having a kid was going to challenge some of that dynamics. And so it was always important for us to design kind of a process systems, tools in place for us to maintain that sense of self in a pretty strong way. And so I think those rituals become super important to us and something that we're going to continue on. I know it's going to get harder. And so when that happens, relying on these rituals and those routines really anchor you into a cadence of being parents.

Adam Fishman (00:11:07):
In addition to these me and We nights, other things that I heard you mention you do like Sunday and you kind of look at the logistics of the week. You mentioned a shared calendar. You've got your planned solo times and together times. Where did you get the inspiration for this?

Jeff Okita (00:11:23):
I'll call out the Mimi and we Nights because that actually came from a coworker of mine. I was preparing for my leave of absence from work. A lot of my coworkers have kids or relatively younger kids and one of them, my VP of client success, he mentioned that that's something that he prioritizes with his wife and his family. And so I think Jamie can speak to this, but we've learned so much from other people. That's probably been one of the primary ways is talking to other parents is really, really critically important. And I know that Jamie's part of lots of communities that help with that.

Jamie Lee (00:12:00):
For me, it's also been word of mouth and friends more reverse engineering into it. When I asked them, I was like, Hey, what's been the most challenging thing about parenting? They've said It's I don't get enough me time, or we don't do date nights anymore, or I forget what it's like to travel. So it's almost like going back into that to say, how do we not fall into that path and what can we do to troubleshoot? So it's like we kind of both came to the conclusion but through different means. But it's great that we're able to land on a process that Jeff implemented to make sure there's something recurring on our calendar that reminds us, oh, a fun night out.

Jeff Okita (00:12:34):
Both Jamie and I are type A people, we prepare, we research all this kind of stuff. And so when we were about to have our baby, I mean we read through the things we listened to, podcasts, all of this different stuff, but nothing can prepare you because there are so many nuances and little decisions that are just not going to surface in those materials. And so that's where really relying on parents and having that kind of feedback loop where you can text someone about a scenario and feel like, what do I do in this situation? We've had various situations where it's like we don't know what to do and how to deal with it. And probably one of the best decisions we made early on was to hire a postpartum doula right after Janie gave birth because there was just these endless amount of moments where Jamie and I would just look at each other and be like, how do you cut a kid's toenails? How do we do this? And so to have someone that can really guide you and teach you through these processes, it really jumpstarted our knowledge of how do you take care of this fragile tiny little baby.

Adam Fishman (00:13:47):
You hinted at travel a few minutes ago, and I want to talk about travel now because in learning about the two of you and your travel plans with your daughter, I was blown away. You've taken 15 flights with your daughter, including two international flights. Now she is 14 months old and you've taken 15 flights, so you've averaged more than one flight a month since she's been born. That's impressive. I don't know that I've taken my kids who are now almost 13 and 10 on 15 flights maybe, but that's a lot of flights. I want to hear about your travel hacks for taking a 14 month old slash all the way down to a young baby on a plane and then we'll get to some of maybe the opposite, the darker side of travel.

Jamie Lee (00:14:36):
So I'd say some of the travel hacks, what we've found is that especially when she was young, so she took her first flight, I want to say in between two to three months. So after we felt like, okay, her health is more stable. She's not this tiny child anymore, she's a little bit more functional. It was easy because she was sleeping all the time. It was actually a lot harder after eight months, which is when she was crawling and more mobile and you needed to distract her in so many different ways, but it just became a very comfortable napping spot. And we were lucky because she would fall asleep on a carrier so we could just wear her the whole time. And it was just a little weighted vest on us for a couple of hours. The knees are pretty simple. Sleep milk and just a nice little cover. It's pretty easy. Pre eight months.

Jeff Okita (00:15:20):
Jamie and I were prolific travelers before we had Baby Arden. We were used to it. We would get to the airport 45 minutes before, have our one carry on and backpack. We had the routine down, we were ready to go. Season Travelers traveling with your baby before eight months is not as hard as it is post eight months. Dely not as hard as probably a 2-year-old. We're coming up on that. It's definitely not easier than what it was before. So you do get used to it and the first time is very scary to try to figure out how are you're going to do all this stuff? Is the baby going to be okay? But the more that you do it, the easier it gets. And we've never had an issue with another person on the slight complaining our baby is crying or anything like that.

(00:16:07):
I think that was one of the biggest fears of am I going to be that parent on the plane where the baby is just crying and crying and crying and someone's going to call them out. It just doesn't happen. I mean, you hear about that happening sometimes, but it's an exception rather than the norm. Everyone is willing to help. There have been plenty of times in which someone saw that I was carrying way too much stuff and they offered to help me carry some things. The baseline is that people are going to be helpful for parents that are traveling with a kid, and that one's just really comforting to know.

Adam Fishman (00:16:39):
You mentioned two international flights. So where have you taken Arden internationally?

Jamie Lee (00:16:44):
We took her to Japan and Taiwan month three, and we specifically looked at destinations that tended to be pretty baby friendly, so there were a lot of changing tables wherever we went. Even in subway stations, there were nursing rooms, so it's like it really catered to younger babies. A lot of places were stroller friendly, so those were some of the factors. And then our second international trip was for Jeff's cousin's wedding to the Philippines just a couple months ago. So she was nearing one at that time. So we can already contrast like, oh, the three month old potato was a lot easier to take with us than this 11 month old kid who wants to run around, but we need her to be strapped to us.

Adam Fishman (00:17:25):
This is actually really interesting. You mentioned that there's different phases for kids. You mentioned the potato phase. This is also a plant phase and a puppy phase. I used to refer to six month old babies as the potted plants because you could basically just put them somewhere and they would kind of sit there and maybe slump over a little bit, but they'd mostly sit. So tell me about the potato plant and puppy phases. Your daughter's probably in the puppy phase now maybe?

Jeff Okita (00:17:53):
Yeah, I think so. When people ask me parenthood and stuff like that, I often think about it in these phases. There was the first two and a half months of life in which there was not a lot of interactivity, and I didn't even know if she knew or cared who I was. And so it's like this is a potato, she's just there and I've got to make sure that she's fed and she takes naps and she has shelter and all that kind of stuff. But you start to shift into this phase where maybe they start to smile at you and maybe possibly recognize you a little bit, and that's a little bit more of maybe the relationship you have with the plant where you have some sort of emotional connection to this thing. But then also not a ton of engagement. And then I think for us around 11 months on Arden really became communicative to us. We caught her some basic baby sign language, things like that, but I mean, you could tell she knows who we are, prefers hanging out with us, all of these things. She acts like a puppy. She's crawling around and starting to play and all these different things. And yes, she's a mini human also, but she's not quite at that phase where she's really saying things to really have that frame of mind that, oh, this is at the actual toddler. She's very much in the puppy phase right now.

Adam Fishman (00:19:19):
Well, we traveled with her when she was a potato and she was two or three months and that's when we went to Japan and Taiwan. And then most recently when she's around a year, you went to the Philippines, which is by my calculations, a very long trip. How do you entertain the puppy, the 11 or 12 month old? So did you just turn her loose and let her waddle up and down the aisles? What do you do in that situation?

Jamie Lee (00:19:43):
If the plane was okay to be like, you know what, someone else can just take care of the puppy. She can entertain you. We try not to be the parents. I give her a ton of screen time during the day, but if you want to wiggle around all the time, we'll let you watch whatever movie we're watching or we'll throw a bluey on for a little bit. She was very interested in water bottles, like empty water bottles and empty pretzel containers. So we're just like, okay, crinkle away. Have fun with that. You try all these things to entertain them, but it's a little bit of screen time walking up and down the aisles and trying to get her to play with whatever is in front of her.

Adam Fishman (00:20:16):
Okay, now we're going to go to the dark side of travel. What's the biggest travel horror story that you've encountered on the 15 flights or so that you've gone on?

Jeff Okita (00:20:28):
I think the biggest thing that is always a risk with traveling, especially when you're baby is still relatively young, is the risk of blowouts when you're traveling. There was this timeframe, this phase that Arden had where she did not poop for 10 straight days. Again, that's one of those things of like, man, if we didn't have the experts to guide us through that, I mean we would be freaking out. 10 days of no poop is not typically normal, but our nanny, our pediatrician, all of them said, this can happen sometimes. Let's wait it out, all this kind of stuff. But when you're also traveling and your baby hasn't pooped for 10 days, you have this ticking time bomb strapped to your chest and you don't know what's going to happen. So I was always a little scared whenever we were prepared to travel, just figuring out, okay, when's the last time that she coats? Are we coming up on a timeframe? I think we've narrowly avoided it, but we've had some close calls, at least on the flight that time where she didn't poop for 10 days. She ended up pooping when we got to the parking lot of the airport and right before I was able to go into the airport and strap her in.

Adam Fishman (00:21:43):
So would you travel with her? Do you bring a bunch of extra clothing and stuff? I mean, it's been a long time since I've had a really young baby, so I imagine you just got to pack it in there just in case.

Jeff Okita (00:21:55):
A change of clothes for both parents and the baby on the airplane is helpful, making sure you have enough diapers and wipes and things like that. Definitely I think the elevation can promote some of those things. We've definitely learned to just have those things available. You don't want to be in a position where you don't have anything and everyone is just a mess. For the most part. I would say 95% of the time we were well prepared, but there were some scenarios where we were left with the consequences of our decisions. We definitely had an incident at the Taipei 1 0 1 Tower, which is this huge tower in Taipei, and we were staying at a hotel right across the street, and so we were just going to go for a quick trip up, take the elevator up to the top. There's a nice coffee shop over there.

(00:22:45):
So I didn't bring very much. I brought ARD in, maybe I had a few small things with me from, that's where we just kind of carried her up there. And of course she decided to have a blowout in her onesie while I was just holding her and we had no extra change of clothing. We had some wipes in one diaper, so we were at least able to change that. I didn't have anything to change her out of, and she stained for onesie, and so I had to go to the bathroom and just wash it in the sink and then trying to blow dry the thing under the hand dryer just to get it as dry as possible. And then we had to go down to a store downstairs. We ended up going to Zara, which was the only store that was available, and the smallest size they had was 12 month old. So it was like we gave her an oversized t-shirt at three months and she just swam in it. But that was the only thing we could do.

Adam Fishman (00:23:39):
I was thinking like, oh, maybe you bought a scarf at Zara and just wrapped her in it or something like that. It's

Jamie Lee (00:23:45):
A great idea.

Adam Fishman (00:23:46):
Okay, so really quick follow up too. Let's say she's got to go on the airplane or she goes on the airplane. It's not like you get a lot of warning here, it just happens. Are you change on the seat people or have you attempted the change in the airplane bathroom? I'd never quite figured out what's the right move here.

Jamie Lee (00:24:05):
We do the bathroom, or at least I do the bathroom, Jeff, you can speak for yourself. But I was like, well, people are eating next to me. They have drinks, it's kind of rude. And I entertain her. I bring her fidget toy to the bathroom, I stick it on the ceiling, so she has something to look at, and she's like relatively calm on the changing table.

Jeff Okita (00:24:23):
I mean, I'll use the bathroom, but I think we have traveled enough to know that you're just in survival mode and if you need to change your baby on the table that you have in front of you, just do what you need to do. We definitely try to make sure that we have enough time and we can get to the restroom and do that, but I definitely don't blame parents who just need to change this diaper right here and there and have just got to do what they got to do.

Adam Fishman (00:24:48):
So there is a theme here from the both of you is not losing your own sense of self and your priorities after you have a kid and figure out how to integrate that kid into the things that you still want to do. You're probably not doing everything you were doing before you had Arden, but you're still running, Jamie, you're still traveling, still doing things like that. I'm curious, was that a set of conversations that the two of you had to have as you were thinking about starting a family as Arden was born? How did you get on the same page around, well, here's how we want to live and how we want to do this, or maybe this is an ongoing conversation?

Jamie Lee (00:25:30):
Yeah, I'd say before Arden was born, there were things that we knew that we love to do together. One which is travel, spending time with friends and family and exploring the world. And we wanted to instill that in Arden. We always believe if we bring the child along for the ride and the adventure, typically he or she will kind of enjoy what you're doing. Or if not, their opinions will surface later on, but for now she can enjoy the ride. So I think we kind of mapped out at a high level what do we care most about together and then individually what are our non-negotiables? For me, that was fitness friends and then my work. And then for Jeff, that was primarily your work and then independent time to yourself that you could spend with friends, family or yourself. And so if we knew that, then we were tactical to say, how do we then block out the hours of the day, whether it's when we have childcare or dividing and conquering later in the evening so that whatever hours we need for those important blocks will be fulfilled.

(00:26:27):
That's an evolving conversation because needs change. But we said, okay, if these are non-negotiables for now, how do we make sure each individual feels satisfied with the time for it? And doing check-ins, we do loose check-ins every month to say, okay, how are we tracking against this? Do we feel like anything's lopsided the last couple of weekends and this upcoming weekend I'll be traveling again solo? So then it's like, okay, when does Jeff get his solo weekend alone? So it's making sure the balance is in toes so everyone feels like they're fulfilled as an individual. In addition to being a parent,

Jeff Okita (00:26:59):
It was hard to predict or to try to anticipate how we're going to feel after becoming parents. So there's definitely some value in trying to find alignment before you actually have your child, but so much of your circumstances is shaped by the actual tendencies of your kid. And if your kid is not sleeping and not feeding and you're going through some hard times, then naturally you may have to sacrifice a little bit more. And I think that's where again, that kind of investment in experts to really help guide us and make sure that we're on the right track and doing some best practices gave us some of this space to still invest in ourselves. But I mean it truly is the limiting thing is the number of hours that you have in your day. And the priority is Arden. And Arden is gracious enough to allow us to still have some time to invest in the things that are important to us.

(00:27:59):
We are grateful for that, but we also know that it may change over time. And so we're trying to appreciate what we have right now and just know that it may continue to evolve. And when it does, then Jamie and I have to sit down and figure out, hey, circumstances have changed. Travel is a lot harder now I'm anticipating that's going to happen when Arden hits two. Not to mention you'll have to start paying for a seat also. So that's a factor. And then we have to think a little bit about like, okay, what does this mean then if travel is important to us, does that mean that we're just going to make it work and deal with the hard stuff? Does that mean we're going to pause and if we pause, does that unlock more opportunities to have more play dates with local kids here? And we could find joy in that. So I think while we do want to invest in what's important to us now, we're also people that are flexible enough to find new loves and find new passions and find new balance.

Adam Fishman (00:28:56):
Thank you both for sharing that. I want to talk about a couple topics that you both suggested might be a little contrarian for this episode. So the first one, I dunno which one of you suggested this, but this idea that having a kid caused you to rethink how important work is,

Jamie Lee (00:29:12):
What does that mean? Both of us lean pretty heavily into that sentiment. I think for me, when I was pregnant, I was on my fractional and portfolio journey, kind of leaving the corporate world behind for a chapter a season or maybe for a longer time. And I read the book Die With Zero. I got that recommended by my career coach again, this team of experts, and she's like, read it. Just let me know what you think. We almost had our own mini book club and it really started to reshape how I wanted to design my life with Jeff, with Arden, with family and friends. And the big takeaway is what are the moments and experiences that I want to engage with in life at different milestones, maybe at 40 or 45 or 50, or I want to go to a ski and snowboard trip in the Alps, or you want to be able to work out of Hawaii for three months, just making up some hypothetical examples.

(00:30:04):
Then how do you create your career to give you enough money to sustain that lifestyle? So almost was like, what are the life experiences I want? And then how do I have a career that's meaningful to me but still backs it up? Whereas my whole life pre parenting was all like, okay, career focus and then what's next? What else can I accomplish? And it became a little bit more like, okay, the superficial elements, but it wasn't really tugging at the core of what is most meaningful to me at life. And I think reading that book and then becoming a parent really solidified that. It's like, oh, when I spend time with Arden, it's like, oh, I could do this for a few hours and do I really want to take care of that one thing with a client? And it's like you start to rebalance ways to capture joy in your life in different ways. And it's not just all about you, but it's also raising another human and individual and seeing them grow. And that teaches a lot about yourself too. Then you start to think of what moments can we have together? And I think flipping that pyramid almost on its head was a pretty significant change for me. And I wouldn't say work is on the back burner, but it's just a part of my life, not the only pillar of my life.

Adam Fishman (00:31:15):
Yeah, it's like work is before you're thinking about a family and things like that. It's all about what's coming next with work. Where am I going next on that career ladder and now work sounds like the way you're describing it is maybe more of a means to an end. What do I want to accomplish in life and how do I structure the career or the work that I want to do that's going to get me to that goal? Which sounds great. What about you, Jeff? How has your relationship with work changed as you become a parent?

Jeff Okita (00:31:46):
It has definitely evolved in the sense that I'm much more hyper conscious of the time and where I'm investing my time. I think both Jamie and I, Cree Arden would work pretty long days. We liked what we did, we were in impactful roles. It was sort of needed that we worked that hard. I'm still in a role like that, the VP of product at a series B venture backed company that's trying to make it. And I am very conscious that I have to be able to show up at work as my best self and to really be super effective in the time that I have because I am also not willing to spend the time that Arden is awake and with us, the ne leaves at four and she goes to bed around seven 30, and so I have three and a half hours of precious time with her and Jamie, and I don't want to just waste that just working during that period of time.

(00:32:49):
So it's caused me to be much more creative with the hours that I work and doing certain things, like if there's a meeting in which I don't have to be an active participant in that meeting, I ask for a recording and I can do that recording and listen to that recording while I'm straightening up for the nanny in the morning or I'm going for a run. It's those types of things in which it allows us to be creative to just fit it all in. But it's just continuing to evolve for me of just thinking through to what extent can I get it all done and I'm hanging on there, hanging in on that. But it's definitely hard challenging and it continues to be something that Jamie and I talk about of how do we handle all the responsibilities that we have and also knowing that it's going to continue to change, that Arden's needs are going to evolve, her bedtimes might change, her nap times might change all of these different things when she goes to daycare. All of those things will shift the equation a little bit and we just have to be agile and just as a result.

Adam Fishman (00:33:49):
Okay. The second thing that I wanted to talk about that that's as a contrarian topic you mentioned was around connection with your baby. So I have heard dads talk about this a little bit before, but there's a general belief that connection just kind of happens, but I'm not sure that that was necessarily your both. I dunno if that's both of your experiences or one of your experiences, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on connection and the work, how it happens or doesn't happen, the work you have to put in to make it happen.

Jamie Lee (00:34:21):
I'd say for me, I think there's this image of hey, a mom births a baby and the moment you see the baby, it's like love at first sight. But the reality is they kind of look like a naked mole rat when they come out an Arden, when you listen to this when you're older. Yes, you did look like a very cute naked mole rat and it's just like, oh, this is my child, but okay, now what do I do? Your body's almost in a state of shock and then it's like, okay, now I have to keep this little human alive. And so there's not enough moments to think of like, oh, now I have to bond with this baby. So I'd say for me it took a few days. I think each individual is different. Maybe it's an hour, maybe it's instant, but for me, I didn't feel that way right off the bat. And I think there's a notion of should you feel guilty? Does this feel weird at all? But it takes time to warm up and it's like you want to feel like, oh, this person knows that I'm here and I know they're here a true human connection, and when they're that young, they're just trying to survive. So I'd say for me it was an instant, but there is this societal norm that it feels like, oh, should it feel instant?

Adam Fishman (00:35:20):
It's definitely something I've heard a lot of dad say. It's also interesting and refreshing to hear you say that too, Jamie, that I can take some time as a mom. Jeff, I've heard a lot of dads on this show come on and say, you're kind of useless for the baby for the first couple of months. You're not useless for mom and you're not useless for doing all of the things in the environment. But that instant connection to the baby is definitely not necessarily there for a lot of dads. I dunno if that was your experience or how you think about that.

Jeff Okita (00:35:53):
I think there's definitely an element of truth in that, and there's a little bit of truth also in the fact that in the first couple of months I understand the point of view of non-birth parents feeling a little useless. I mean a couple things here. One is for me, connection is like a two-way thing. And when you are staring at a potato and they don't even know that you're there or might not even be able to see you, yeah, it's hard to form that connection. And I saw my bonds with art and strengthen as these very concrete moments in my mind when she first smiled back at me and when she first had stranger danger in the sense that she was fine being carried by me. But when I tried to hand her off, she didn't like that. And that somehow made me feel as though, oh, she cares who I am.

(00:36:41):
And those are the moments in which you start to build that connection and that preference because you know that this little baby actually sees you and wants to be around you. And I've definitely seen that increase kind of my connection and affinity towards Arden. And then on the point of that first couple months, Jamie chose to have Arden natural birth and no drugs or anything like that, and I was by her side all through that. And something fundamentally changes with of course the birthing partner, but also for me watching your partner go through that, it kind of slaps you in the face of what the person who's having the baby has to do, carrying that baby going through childbirth, and then if you choose to breastfeed all the work that's involved with that, it's just a tremendous amount that I don't get to partake in.

(00:37:40):
I'm not doing that. I'm not carrying the baby, I'm not giving birth to it. I'm not breastfeeding the baby. And so in my mind, I mean we had talked a little bit about this, Jamie and I as well, that for as long as she is breastfeeding, I think it's fine for me to take on to over index in some of those other things that need to happen, changing, putting the baby down to bed, all this kind of stuff, waking up early in the morning because there's just so much sacrifice that's done in being the birthing parent, and I just felt it was a bit of my responsibility to even that out by carrying a bit more of the load even during those first two months. So when you talk about some of the sacrifices and compromises that you have to make, well definitely there was a moment one month in where Jamie was still recovering from childbirth.

(00:38:26):
Arden was crying, we weren't sleeping very well, and I felt a little shellshocked. I was like, there is no routine. I don't know where I am. Everyone's relying on me for everything. And it was totally overwhelming, but that's kind of what was needed in that moment. It was not about me, it was about the baby and it was about Jamie and it was about this family. So I had to throw out all these things that I wanted to do or what I needed in that moment to just make sure that the family was taken care of. I sort of think that that's the role that you need to play during the first couple of months is you have to carry your own side of the weight because you're a partner carried a lot.

Adam Fishman (00:39:04):
One of the things that you both had mentioned is this idea of there's kind of a default. I put default in quotes set of work that tends to fall on the birthing parent. And I think what you're describing there, Jeff, is we kind of need to reject that. This has actually started to come up a little bit more in this show. So Jamie, what are your thoughts on this rejecting that kind of default that tends to come in society?

Jamie Lee (00:39:31):
Yeah, I really appreciate the questioning of the default birthing parent, and if another family chooses of the default weight goes on, the birthing parent, that's all the more fair to them too. But I think for us in our situation as a birthing parent, the default isn't just emotional mental, but it's a lot of it in the first month or two is physical. So I also chose to nurse and pump really for the first year of Arden's life, but you're tethered to this child or a pump every two to four hours

Adam Fishman (00:39:58):
And

Jamie Lee (00:39:59):
It's like, oh, I'm on the clock. I've got this amount of free time before I need to be tethered to one or the other. So I think when you're on this clock and you're physically sharing your body with someone else, there's the physical and mental and emotional component to it that I think the non birthing parent may see, but not fully experience. So those are hours each day that are already spoken for, but I love the more progressive notion these days where people are starting to rebalance that a little bit and really shine light on a lot of the physical toll and the time commitment it really takes for the birthing parent. And I think I've seen some stats too that it can equal to a 30 plus hour job if you think about feeding and cleaning and all of that. So when you think about that, it's like, oh, if the mom is working plus doing all these things, we're looking at a very long work week where there's no time for you.

Adam Fishman (00:40:51):
That's pretty great, and I'm glad that the two of you have found a way to kind of reject that default and we could talk about it on here. Jeff, there is one other thing that I wanted to bring up, which is I think maybe you mentioned this, that maybe you thought you were going to be a different type of parent before Arden was born and then she's born and then you're like, oh, I'm not the parent that I thought I was going to be. I'm bringing something different to this. So what do you mean about that?

Jeff Okita (00:41:17):
I sort of thought that I was going to be the fun parent, the fun dad, and I think that's part of, because I'm naturally pretty laid back and Jamie is high intensity, all of those aspects that was wrong. Jamie is the fun parent. Arden loves playing with Jamie, like fake wrestling, throwing her up in the air, all that kind of stuff. She just knows she gets to play when she's with Jamie, but I'm much more of maybe more traditional caretaker type of thing, not the fun and just kind of shows. It's just really hard to predict beforehand. It's hard to know. You kind of settle into different roles and you guys get different things out of the relationship with your child, and so I'm totally fine with that. I'm fine with the role that I'm play. I love seeing Jamie play with Arden, and I love the kind of joy and the smiles that Arden has when Jamie throws her into the air as high as she can. It's a lot of fun to see.

Adam Fishman (00:42:18):
Well, and there may still be time to become fun, dad, if that's what you desire. So Jamie, how do you feel about that moniker fun mom? I

Jamie Lee (00:42:27):
Like it. I dig it. I didn't know what kind of parent I would be because to be perfectly honest, I wasn't even sure that I wanted to be a parent or mom even before we went on this journey. So it's like I think we eventually got to that space, we're like, okay, we're ready to have a family. But it was more neutral to positive than like, oh, heck yes, 10 out of 10 I want to be a mom. And I think people should be more open about that conversation. So for me, I was like, I don't know what kind of mom I'm going to be. We'll just kind of go with the flow, see what happens. But I was like, oh, it's like a mini version of us that we get to hang out with, and it's like, I'll put her on my shoulders, we'll do some squats together when we go to the airport, I'll get a workout and I'll put her on my luggage and we push it around like a sled and she has fun with it. And I was like, oh, this is kind of just a buddy that I get to hang out with.

Adam Fishman (00:43:13):
Okay. I wanted to ask you, Jeff, so you work in the leave management industry, which I actually didn't even know was an industry until I learned about what you do, and I dug into it a little bit more. So there's all forms of leave. There's obviously parental leave that we think about for parents, but then there's long-term care leave, there's disability leave, there's all that sort of stuff. I think you probably get a front row seat to observing a lot of the challenges that people have in taking leave from work. What have you noticed about those challenges working directly in this industry?

Jeff Okita (00:43:51):
It's really interesting and a really, really difficult challenge. The US does not have a federal paid leave benefit, and pretty much the vast majority of people will need to take some sort of a leave of absence for parental leave or any of those other things. If you get injured, you have to take a medical leave of some sort. You have to take a step away from work to recover, take care of life, basically. If you're fortunate enough to live in a state that has a state paid benefit, then you're able to get some of your wages subsidized when you take a leaves typically up to 60% of your wages so that you don't have to make this impossible choice of do I want to get paid or should I take care of my family? But that is a real choice that the majority of people have to make, and that includes if you are a birthing parent and you give birth, there is job protection benefits on a federal level called FMLA, but that just means that you have your job guaranteed and you can come back to it.

(00:44:57):
It doesn't mean that you're going to get paid if you're in a position where you need that income, you give birth to a parent and you are faced with this choice of, well, I can't pay my bills, I have to go back to work. And there are so many stories of someone that just has to when they just gave birth for a couple of days ago and have not had the opportunity to bond with their kid and just has to go back to work to support their family. And so really I get a front row view to that happening all the time. What we do is we build software that helps companies manage leave of absences for their employees because companies also fill that gap. So we talked about the state, but companies can offer a paid leave benefit for their employees because the federal government doesn't have a paid policy yet.

(00:45:49):
So to fill that gap, companies would put together a paid policy so that people can step away and doesn't have to be faced with that impossible choice. So implementing that policy and also understanding how that interacts with insurance carriers that provide short-term disability and how that interacts with state laws and how that interacts with the federal job protection laws. It's a whole tangled mess of legislation and things that impact pay, and it becomes really complicated. So that's what we do is we build a software platform that really helps untangle that both for the companies and then also to help guide the employees through that leave experience.

Adam Fishman (00:46:29):
I'm sure, yes, for the companies, they're probably the ones buying the software, but man, also for parents who are like, what do I do here? Or other folks who have other kinds of leave that they need to take, and maybe you feel kind of panicked or desperate, it's hard to navigate that stuff. So I'm glad that that exists. We're in the home stretch here. I'm very curious because the two of you have spent the vast majority of your careers working in technology or adjacent to technology or surrounded by it. Have you two talked or thought about individually even what the relationship you want your daughter to have with technology is as she gets older?

Jamie Lee (00:47:10):
I think lightly, Adam, you brought up a really interesting point. Jeff and I were recently talking about it. Tech is going to be so central to everything and will continue to be for a lot of our lives and especially for Ardent's generation. So we're aligned on wanting Ardent to have a healthy relationship with technology, not afraid of it, but also not glued to a screen or some sort of technology 24 7. I'm excited about how AI, for instance, or technology can augment her life and her learning, but not be a replacement for entertainment or engaging with other people. So as it pertains to the basics of technology, IE miss Rachel and screen time. I'm sure light doses and extra parent slash babysitter, were definitely game for that. But thinking about, okay, can, for instance, she used chat GBT as she gets older, still learning a lot of the fundamentals, but using chat GBT as a partner in crime to help her get to solutions faster because it'll inevitably be a part of our lives. We don't want to have her shy away from it altogether, but the reality is like we'll just have to adapt on the fly, but we do want technology to be a part of her life.

Adam Fishman (00:48:21):
It'd be really interesting to see. She's 14 months now. She's still several years away from being school age. Definitely elementary school age in kindergarten. It'd be really interesting to see four years down the road what school looks like and how different it looks like from today with the rise of two years ago, we didn't have chat GPT, for example. So be really curious. I'm keeping a close eye on it. I'm also thinking about that for my kids with what is college going to look like because closer to college, they may be equidistant to college as your daughter is to elementary school. So time will tell.

Jeff Okita (00:48:57):
We grew up in the age where the internet was just starting to come online when we were kids, and then we had a smartphone and we were the first generation that was sort of internet native that we kind of centrally grew up with that. Sure, we had memories of not having that and having to play outside and things like that. But it was a central part of our experience and it's really interesting to think through the fact that Arden is likely to grow with AI being a native experience of her and how that fundamentally changes what her world might look like. And it's really hard to predict that. It would've been impossible to predict how the internet would've impacted our world and has shaped our careers before that came into fruition. And it's the same thing. It's pretty impossible to predict all the ways that AI might fundamentally change what job options she may have or how she's going to learn or how she's going to interact with it in different ways. Is that going to be a partner of hers? Jamie and I are already seeing that in some of our own patterns that when we need to talk something out, we'll use the chat feature on CHATT PT to just kind of rubber duck something and refine our thinking and what happens when that's by default available to Arden in any moment where she just wants to talk to something. It's really interesting and hard to imagine how that's going to change everything.

Adam Fishman (00:50:25):
Time will tell, and I am maybe fortunately or unfortunately, I don't know, not great at the prediction business, so we'll see. Last thing that I wanted to ask you too is both of you are parents with demanding professional lives. You work pretty much a full-time job. You've got a nanny from eight to four. You're doing a lot. I talk to a lot of people who are a few years earlier than the two of you, and they're very nervous about starting a family because they don't know what the impact's going to be on their career or their travel plans or their life, the things they like to do. I would just ask, are there any kind of final tips or examples that you might have for parents of your day-to-day experiences in balancing demanding professional lives with family? And were the two of you nervous before you got started with this? Do you think that that's an entirely normal thing for people to feel? And what do you tell people who are getting started on this journey?

Jamie Lee (00:51:35):
Yeah. I'd say the feeling nervous or being unsure is definitely a normal feeling. I would say the biggest takeaway is staying open-minded and adaptable. As I mentioned earlier, it's like when I think about my career and my priorities pre-baby, pre art, and it was so different than, oh, seeing her and being a mom, I was like, it could be hormones, it could be biology or something that fundamentally changes. Maybe it's the book Die With Zero, but you're always evolving as a person, and as long as you keep an open mind and adaptable to new loves and new preferences or a way to find joy and meaning in life, you can always make parenthood a really cool experience. It doesn't have to be scary, but approaching it to be like, Hey, I'm going to embrace it. I'm going to go all in. And if you do that, you can make it the experience that you want. Similar to maybe a lot of folks that you're talking to, Adam, that may be very, if they're going all in, that if they go all in and parenting and career, yes, it is hard. It's not easy, but people get it done. They make it work and they find balance and happiness. So just keeping an open mind and being open to rebalancing that equation of happiness.

Adam Fishman (00:52:41):
Yeah. Jeff, anything you would add to that?

Jeff Okita (00:52:44):
Yeah, I think it's totally natural to be nervous about becoming parents for the first time. I think that you do need to go into it eyes wide open that you're not going to do all the same things that you did before, but it is entirely possible to find the one or two things that you really love and to still make sure that that happens. And I think the key thing to remember is those other things that you decide are not your top one or two priorities. Sure they go away, but they are filled that time instead is filled with the joy of being able to have this family and this baby, and so there's something else that replaces it that is totally worth it and fills up your cut. So there absolutely is this opportunity to still hold true the things that are most important to you, but there will be sacrifices, but they'll be well worth it to us. It's been well worth it, have been really, really happy with the balance that we've been able to create as a family.

Adam Fishman (00:53:48):
Awesome. Well, that is a very optimistic way of ending the primary part of our conversation. Jamie and Jeff, last thing for you both before lightning round and I promise we'll be quick, that's the name. How can people follow along or be helpful to you both personally, professionally anyway? What can they do for you?

Jamie Lee (00:54:11):
You can find me on LinkedIn, Jamie a Lee, and my company is called JME Labs, so it's a plan where it's on my name but also stands for the portfolio of work that I do. So connect with me to DM me, talk about parenting or whatnot, or if you want to find a new High Rocks or a DECA training buddy, hit me up and we can race together in the future.

Jeff Okita (00:54:33):
Yeah, I think I'm always interested in connecting to other people, especially entrepreneurs, builders, people in products. LinkedIn is the best place to find me. I'm just always interested in having really interesting conversations about how to build community and the support systems that we all need of being parents and working in early stage startups in tech. We need each other to build on that knowledge and help each other out.

Adam Fishman (00:54:57):
We need that extended team, so maybe we'll add a few people to your extended team after this episode today. Okay. Lightning round. Here we go. You can both answer. You can choose. You can delegate to the other person. Let's get started. What is the most indispensable parenting product that you have ever purchased?

Jeff Okita (00:55:18):
I have always been surprised at how Arden will just love playing with a water model. I think we've given up on the fancy product that we think, oh, she's just going to fall in love with. There's just the most random things that she gets super obsessed with, and so just give her something to play around with and she's going to love it.

Adam Fishman (00:55:38):
Okay. Jamie, I'm going to popcorn over to you for the next one. What is the most useless parenting product you've ever purchased?

Jamie Lee (00:55:45):
Bassinets. I think she used it once where it's ideal in theory, but I was like, yep, that was a $500 item that was used once.

Adam Fishman (00:55:54):
I think we may have had that same experience

Jamie Lee (00:55:58):
And on planes too. Completely useless. We just put our things there.

Adam Fishman (00:56:01):
Yeah, exactly. Okay. True or false, there's only one correct way to load the dishwasher?

Jeff Okita (00:56:08):
I think the answer is definitely yes. I don't know if Jamie will agree though.

Jamie Lee (00:56:14):
I say false. I usually just throw everything in and then when I come back to look at it later, it looks like a Tetris grandmaster just reshuffled everything and it's already in the wash.

Adam Fishman (00:56:25):
So Jeff is doing this invisibly when you're not paying attention, Jamie? Yes. Okay. All right. I think Jeff wins on this one. Okay. Jeff, what is your signature dad superpower?

Jeff Okita (00:56:36):
I have somehow gotten pretty good at putting art into bed really well, and for her naps, it's some sort of routine. I'm just really trying to comfort her and put her down, but I've gotten really good at just being able to do that super duper quickly, so we'll have friends over whatever Arden's got to be put down, I can just go and do that a couple minutes and then come back and they're like, wait is ardent asleep. So I think that must be one of my dad's superpowers.

Adam Fishman (00:57:04):
Okay. Jamie, what's your mom's superpower?

Jamie Lee (00:57:07):
I'd say trying to make Arden laugh. So whether it's running around in circles while she's eating a meal or making funny faces at her or knowing where she's most ticklish, it's like, oh, if she's upset. Okay, we're going to cheer you up and try to get a giga out of you.

Adam Fishman (00:57:21):
What is the crazier block of time in your house? 6:00 AM to 8:00 AM or 5:00 PM to 7:00 PM It's

Jeff Okita (00:57:27):
Definitely 5:00 PM to 7:00 PM six to eight. Sometimes Arden's still asleep halfway through that, but Jamie's definitely asleep during that period of time. It's often very quiet time. I'm not a morning person, but five to seven. Arden's very awake. Yeah, Jamie is ready to go and play and have some fun and so five to seven, there's lots of things going on.

Adam Fishman (00:57:50):
Alright. I think there's always at least one morning person and one not morning person in every household. This is good. It's usually good when it's not like the kid is the morning person and neither of the parents are. So even though Arden can't quite say any words, many words yet, if she had to describe each of you in a single word, what would it be?

Jamie Lee (00:58:14):
I'd say mine would be zoomies because she loves dogs and she also thinks I'm just running in circles. Whether I'm doing lunges with her on top of my shoulders or running around while she eats, trying to sing Old McDonald and get her to sing with me.

Jeff Okita (00:58:28):
I'm not sure about this one, but probably sustenance, bringer. I am the person, I'm making sure that she's got some food or bringing milk to her and she's always signing to me milk, milk, milk. She sees me and just is now just always being like, yeah, I remember that signal.

Jamie Lee (00:58:50):
Exactly.

Jeff Okita (00:58:50):
Alright. What is each of your favorite kids' movies? For me, some of the kids' movies that stand out for me was not any of the Disney stuff. I just remember things like, I dunno if you remember the movie Blank Check where a kid gets a blank check and fills it in for, it was probably like a million dollars and then got to buy all these things, buy a mansion in a house, all that stuff. I just remembered those types of movies and really enjoying that and watching that with my sister.

Jamie Lee (00:59:19):
I'm so basic. I'd say it's any one of the Disney movies because I'm an only child, but I had a ton of cousins and so we would watch a lot of Disney movies together. So I think it's the nostalgia

Adam Fishman (00:59:29):
Nostalgic movie. Can you not wait to Force Arden to watch with you, Jeff? Maybe this is blank check. I don't know.

Jeff Okita (00:59:37):
I'm sort of excited to introduce art into some of the Disney movies because they're just culturally so part of the milieu. Everyone talks about them and they're kind of designed to be one in which you can enjoy that as a parent while the kid also watches. And so I am excited to kind of watch things together. I've already started to do some of that. We'll watch Planet Earth together for instance, and just watch all the animals. That's really fun and entertaining. So we're starting to venture into that a little bit more right now.

Adam Fishman (01:00:09):
Alright. What is either of your go-to snack when you're hiding in the pantry from your daughter?

Jeff Okita (01:00:16):
Anytime she sees anything that resembles a cracker, she has to have it.

Jamie Lee (01:00:21):
That's what I do when I'm hiding in the pantry and Jeff grabs the cracker to give to Arden while we're both hiding. It's like, okay, what do we do? How do we divide and conquer? She loves a good cracker.

Adam Fishman (01:00:33):
What is the worst experience that you've ever had? Assembling a, probably not a toy at this point, but maybe a piece of kids' furniture.

Jeff Okita (01:00:42):
And I remember being on parental leave or even preparing for that and just needing to build the nursery and build all this different stuff and it took forever and you're trying to build stuff that's kind of maybe a little bit nicer than maybe just Ikea furniture, but everything just has so many pieces. I mean, I can't imagine back in the day you used just to buy things already assembled and you just put it into your house. That seems so much better than trying to build something with a thousand pieces in it and having to screw little things. If you look in art's room, everything looks okay, but there are pieces that are backwards. There are things where the screws definitely shouldn't be there and you just make it work.

Adam Fishman (01:01:26):
Alright, last two. How long can a piece of food sit on the floor in your house and you will still eat it?

Jamie Lee (01:01:33):
I think before it was the five second rule, but now it's like, oh, is this a clean area that no one touches a corner of the pantry that's clean, maybe like an hour. It's fine.

Adam Fishman (01:01:44):
Last question, what is your take on minivans?

Jeff Okita (01:01:48):
I'm pragmatic. I think that we need more space. I mean, we've got a Subaru right now that barely fits the things that we need to if we go on a road trip, and I'm definitely in my convenience phase of life. So whatever vehicle that allows me to easily take all the things and everyone's comfortable and happy, that's my preference.

Adam Fishman (01:02:10):
Jamie, Jeff, thank you so much for joining me today on Startup Dad, this was such a fun conversation. I loved having you both on and I learned a lot about raising a 14 month old. This has been fantastic. I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Adam. Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Jamie Lee and Jeff ota. Startup dad is available in all your favorite podcast players and YouTube. Just search for startup dad to find it anywhere you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening and see you next week.